Vinnie's Speed & Style: How Did It Evolve?

[thattimeofyear87]

In listening to Vinnie's entire career output, I think it's striking how his guitar style morphed from "Treasure" and "Dan Hartman" to KISS and, finally, the Invasion. It's like Vinnie started in one place and completely ended up on another side of the world. In other words, put on "Double-O-Love" from Dan Hartman and then put on "Breakout" or "Euphoria" -- it would be hard to imagine it's the same lead guitarist on these tracks.

Some questions/topics I thought would be interesting for discussion:

- I remember recently reading/hearing that Vinnie could do amazing spot-on emulations of Jeff Beck. Has Vinnie ever cited a favorite Beck song or recording? His Dan Hartman solos are extremely Beck-ish.

- Vinnie once said that he wished he could devote more time to his classical playing. Do we know if he had a repertoire of classical pieces in his arsenal? And did he ever cite any classical guitarists as influences? (I'm not recalling offhand...)

- When did Vinnie "woodshed" his speedy technical side -- alternate picking, tapping, sweep picking, etc.? In other words, did he always have these techniques at his disposal, even in the late '70s? Or is it something he honed in on as he got the KISS gig and as the shred style was becoming en vogue? Truth be told, while some are naturals on guitar, it takes time to develop things like VV-fast alternate picking.

- His country-inspired pick-finger technique: Did he utilize this prior to KISS? I think the first recorded example of him playing a lick that uses this technique might be during the fade to "Saint And Sinner" (@ 4:43)?

- Speaking of country, do we think Vinnie had a bag of country-style licks and could play within that style comfortably? I would bet so...

- Even live in KISS, Vinnie seemed to hold back, compared to subsequent live recordings with the Invasion. What do you think it was that made him want to take his lead playing to such an eccentric level with the Invasion? Of course, we know the "'Lick It Up' was 25 percent of what I'm capable of" talk, but what was the spark that made Vinnie want to become an over the top speed demon?

- Chord melody: According to Adam Mitchell, Vinnie could play a version of "White Christmas" that would "break your heart." Also, if you listen to the Oakland recording of "Back On The Streets" from the ASG tour, Vinnie plays a beautiful chord melody-style introduction before going into the song. When did Vinnie develop this side of his playing? And I wonder if this side of his playing is something he has nurtured in later years?

- How long did Vinnie warm up for before gigs?

- His Invasion-era solos: Do you think Vinnie improvised these in the studio? Or did he work them out/map them out thematically beforehand? According to some of the people I've interviewed, Dana Strum was an integral part of the equation, in terms of knowing/suggesting when to punch Vinnie in and out.

Any general and/or additional thoughts/observations on the topic would be appreciated as well.

[poserboy71]

I love that Vinnie was sly enough to slip pedal steel into "Saint And Sinner" during the solo.

[thattimeofyear87]

Admin, please delete this topic. It seems it's more appropriate to talk about Vinnie's house being foreclosed. Seriously, if know one wants to talk actual music here, why even bother.

[shramiac]

1. Dunno
2. Dunno but he liked Django
3. I guess he would have picked up a lot of the new techniques and developed them pretty quickly, being naturally talented. If Richie Kotzen could put out his first album with no sweep picking, learn how to do it from Jason Becker after the album was released and then use it on his second album the next year.....guessing Vinnie could have learnt new techniques just as quickly!
4. Assume so as he finger picked from the beginning.
5. Yes! Rumours he used to work with Kenny Chesney and try & sell songs as a writer in Nashville over the years. (I believe he COULD play just about anything.......jealous!!! I can still drive a forklift better though! )
6. The Invasion was over the top in every way possible and in '86, shred was in! To this day, NO ONE sounds like Vinnie! Only thing that came close to Vinnie was Vernon Reid on Cult of Personality but it's slop in comparison.
7a. Always there! There are some beautiful & complex melodies in a lot of the Invasion stuff. Has a great ear for melodies (wouldn't be surprised if he has Perfect Pitch).
7b.Hope he keeps the melodic stuff going as it's wonderful.......Les Paul when riddled with arthritis was still a melodic bitch till the day he died.
8. Depends on how many girls were back stage.....zing!!!!!
9a. Worked out in my view. He knew exactly what he wanted to do.
9b. Dana....as much as we rip him, has a great ear and is a good producer and still busts his ass live as recent footage shows!

[Possio]

Sadly, I think you will make more money driving a forklift well as opposed to playing the guitar on V´s level in his heyday..today...things have changed.. Like Dylan sang..

[doublev2]

I think his speed thing came from his paganini and classic violinist influences I would guess. My guess is there was no outlet for his speed playing in the 70s until the heavy metal scene took off so I guess it was just the time and with people like Eddie and yngwie coming through as well as vv a space was made for fast playing and then vv saw that he could take it further.
I know that a lot of the old timers prefer his pre kiss work which non of us have really heard to its max but then there are people who like his shock and awe style. I think it's too easy to.brush shredding aside as junk to be honest.
For me invincible solo is the perfect mix of fast and sloe.

I would love dearly to hear some beck stuff he did.

[doublev2]

Hey thattimeofyear I thought you wanted to talk music?

[thattimeofyear87]

Hey thattimeofyear I thought you wanted to talk music?

Yes, that's what I prefer. Judging by the response to this thread, it doesn't seem like this is the appropriate place.

[doublev2]

I talked music didn't I?

[Slayer]

TTOY,
I'm coming into this discussion late but unless there are posts that have been removed from this thread that I can no longer see I can't see what has set you off. What pissed you off brother? Did you read a different topic that upset you and then post on this thread?

Kev

[poserboy71]

He gives people less than a day to respond before he blows a gasket.

[doublev2]

Yet he waits weeks to reply.

[poserboy71]

Hey thattimeofyear I thought you wanted to talk music?

Yes, that's what I prefer. Judging by the response to this thread, it doesn't seem like this is the appropriate place.

It really wasn't that great of a question to peek enough interest.

Here is the answer... are you ready? ----HE FUCKING PRACTICED !!!! He wanted to blow away people who thought Eddie and Randy (then Yngwie) were the best...

[thattimeofyear87]

Hey thattimeofyear I thought you wanted to talk music?

Yes, that's what I prefer. Judging by the response to this thread, it doesn't seem like this is the appropriate place.

It really wasn't that great of a question to peek enough interest.

Here is the answer... are you ready? ----HE FUCKING PRACTICED !!!! He wanted to blow away people who thought Eddie and Randy (then Yngwie) were the best...

That's a beautiful response. But then again, I'd expect nothing insightful from someone who believes Robben Ford played the guitar solo on "Saint And Sinner."

[thattimeofyear87]

TTOY,
I'm coming into this discussion late but unless there are posts that have been removed from this thread that I can no longer see I can't see what has set you off. What pissed you off brother? Did you read a different topic that upset you and then post on this thread?

Kev

Kev,

This is only my humble opinion. I've been on these forums since 2011, and lurked for quite some time before. I'd prefer more talk about Vinnie's music and guitar playing, tenure with KISS, etc., as opposed to the personal business, tabloid-style talk, etc. It seems there are folks here with like-minded interests along these lines, but my take is this type of talk has dissipated in recent years. Mind you, I realize it's difficult to talk about actual music when the output has been exactly zero for quite some time. But I do believe there is still much to talk about and debate with regard to Vinnie's career. And I still find the man and his music fascinating.

The times when I've tried to post topics, I've noted little or no response. And some of the responses have been along the lines of "we've covered this already" (see this thread). So mainly, it's just frustration on my part. At this point, maybe the things that I'd like to know about Vinnie, including some of the questions I posted in this topic, are beyond me or anyone on this here forum. Or as pb71 said, maybe these type of things just aren't interesting. No harm, no foul.

[poserboy71]

Hey thattimeofyear I thought you wanted to talk music?

Yes, that's what I prefer. Judging by the response to this thread, it doesn't seem like this is the appropriate place.

It really wasn't that great of a question to peek enough interest.

Here is the answer... are you ready? ----HE FUCKING PRACTICED !!!! He wanted to blow away people who thought Eddie and Randy (then Yngwie) were the best...

That's a beautiful response. But then again, I'd expect nothing insightful from someone who believes Robben Ford played the guitar solo on "Saint And Sinner."

You really haven't read the forum , HAVE YOU ?
I believe that I was one of the first people who pointed out that Vinnie was using pedal steel on "Over You" then afterwards pointing out how he slipped in the pedal steel on "Saint And Sinner".

As for Robben Ford playing any solos on COTN, I am sure it was part of a discussion here and I am sure that all of us were throwing out our guesses. It IS a forum ya know !!!!
Since good ol' Vinnie doesn't come here (AS HIMSELF ) and converse with those who care, sometimes we guess until we come up with the logical answer.

Smooches to you, you fucking jerk !

[thattimeofyear87]

You really haven't read the forum , HAVE YOU ?

Sure, I have.

I believe that I was one of the first people who pointed out that Vinnie was using pedal steel on "Over You" then afterwards pointing out how he slipped in the pedal steel on "Saint And Sinner".

The part in question in "Saint And Sinner" was executed with use of the bar. Not pedal steel. You're ridiculously mistaken.

As for Robben Ford playing any solos on COTN, I am sure it was part of a discussion here and I am sure that all of us were throwing out our guesses.

I'm sure it's hard to pick out Vinnie's stylistic nuances when you're too busy focusing on the tabloid-type fodder.

Since good ol' Vinnie doesn't come here (AS HIMSELF ) and converse with those who care, sometimes we guess until we come up with the logical answer.

Smooches to you, you fucking jerk !

I can see how VV has taken such a shine to you. Pathetic asshole.

[doublev2]

All areas are covered here. If you were around on my dv board you will know no gossip was allowed but then vv booted everyone closed the board down etc. Then you are into 'what the fuck' world. He booted people who never posted..people who were ridiculously nice and everyone else and you would have been too.
Then you start wondering who the hell is this guy.
Plus this place is no where near as tabloid as other forums plus all true.

[poserboy71]

You ask to discuss music and we have long before you were here and long afterwards.
We have guessed, we have been mistaken, BUT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HIS MUSIC AS MUCH AS WE CAN.
It is called beating a dead horse at some point.
We only have so many releases to speak of.

As for the PEDAL STEEL (SOUNDING) LICK, I submit this video at the 2;45 mark.[youtube][/youtube]
However he executed it, it shows his brilliance. HE GOT IT ON A FUCKING KISS RECORD !!!!
It is still a PEDAL STEEL lick.

We have one more asshole that wants to act like they are indeed Vinnie, or an insider, by being the know-it-all.

COME CLOSER... CLOSER...
Let me whisper in your ear...
I will let you in on a little secret.
I baited you.
The style in which you had to give your detailed answer is very familiar.
You gave yourself away, ASSHOLE !!!!

I suggest you watch your tone, little one.
We have forbidden a lot of tabloid stuff from this site.
In fact, some very sick FACTS about Vinnie have just been handed to us (along with photographic evidence) that we CHOOSE not to display here because we want to save the guy some face.

If you are wondering why we are so concerned in another recent Dino thread... you need not wonder anymore.

[doublev2]

Funny thing is you have not talked about music like you suggest everyone does. So why not do as you say and talk about vv music. Then we can talk.

[doublev2]

Also this forum has many voices including yours ttoy. Everyone has their ideas including you. It's not just one thing. I talked music and you didn't reply so do you really want to.talk music????

[doublev2]

Vv said GARY MOOREs falling in love with you one of his all time favourite songs. He also loved Def Leopard around lick it up era.

[shramiac]

Saint and Sinner was played with a slide on the (assumed) pinkie was it not?

[thattimeofyear87]

You ask to discuss music and we have long before you were here and long afterwards.
We have guessed, we have been mistaken, BUT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HIS MUSIC AS MUCH AS WE CAN.
It is called beating a dead horse at some point.
We only have so many releases to speak of.

Then maybe it's time for you to move along and find something new to positively focus on.

As for the PEDAL STEEL (SOUNDING) LICK, I submit this video at the 2;45 mark.[youtube][/youtube]
However he executed it, it shows his brilliance. HE GOT IT ON A FUCKING KISS RECORD !!!!
It is still a PEDAL STEEL lick.

No, it's not.

We have one more asshole that wants to act like they are indeed Vinnie, or an insider, by being the know-it-all.

COME CLOSER... CLOSER...
Let me whisper in your ear...
I will let you in on a little secret.
I baited you.
The style in which you had to give your detailed answer is very familiar.
You gave yourself away, ASSHOLE !!!!

I suggest you watch your tone, little one.
We have forbidden a lot of tabloid stuff from this site.
In fact, some very sick FACTS about Vinnie have just been handed to us (along with photographic evidence) that we CHOOSE not to display here because we want to save the guy some face.

If you are wondering why we are so concerned in another recent Dino thread... you need not wonder anymore.

My name is Tim. I'm formerly the co-admin at KissFAQ. I don't know who you think I am or was, but you're gravely mistaken once again. Search my posts out here and there and you'll see that this is not my usual posting style, but more of a reaction to you provoking me.

I have no idea what you're talking about above and don't care to know about it, or anything about you. I'm just a faithful longtime KISS/Vinnie Vincent fan who is still very much into the music and good memories. And I don't claim -- or have I ever claimed -- to know Vinnie or be any type of insider.

[Slayer]

You ask to discuss music and we have long before you were here and long afterwards.
We have guessed, we have been mistaken, BUT WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HIS MUSIC AS MUCH AS WE CAN.
It is called beating a dead horse at some point.
We only have so many releases to speak of.

As for the PEDAL STEEL (SOUNDING) LICK, I submit this video at the 2;45 mark.[youtube][/youtube]
However he executed it, it shows his brilliance. HE GOT IT ON A FUCKING KISS RECORD !!!!
It is still a PEDAL STEEL lick.

We have one more asshole that wants to act like they are indeed Vinnie, or an insider, by being the know-it-all.

COME CLOSER... CLOSER...
Let me whisper in your ear...
I will let you in on a little secret.
I baited you.
The style in which you had to give your detailed answer is very familiar.
You gave yourself away, ASSHOLE !!!!

I suggest you watch your tone, little one.
We have forbidden a lot of tabloid stuff from this site.
In fact, some very sick FACTS about Vinnie have just been handed to us (along with photographic evidence) that we CHOOSE not to display here because we want to save the guy some face.

If you are wondering why we are so concerned in another recent Dino thread... you need not wonder anymore.

Video appears to be concert footage of a different song with SOS played over it. Rio?

[poserboy71]

As for the PEDAL STEEL (SOUNDING) LICK, I submit this video at the 2;45 mark.[youtube][/youtube]
However he executed it, it shows his brilliance. HE GOT IT ON A FUCKING KISS RECORD !!!!
It is still a PEDAL STEEL lick.

No, it's not.

No matter how it was played, it is still a PEDAL STEEL SOUNDING LICK. Yessir.

Timbo from FAQ , I have seen you answer things in the very same manner.
Why are you a FORMER CO-admin... Did you get tired of policing KISSFAQ many wig threads ?

The other members are familiar with you as well. You bore us.

Like I said, We have been here long before you and we will be here when you leave.
You asked a very generic question and were butthurt that nobody found your generic question interesting enough to answer.
The proof is in the posts though. I was the first person to at least offer a response before you offended the ranks here.

Your egging-on is not needed here. We speak of the music, the person, the image, the thief, the troubled soul,etc...
Your question SUCKED !!!!
We have covered his playing style in detail. Search the forum before your next tantrum.


I suggest you go fuck off back to the FAQ and argue about which version of Ace's makeup you like the best.

[Genebaby]

Guys, can everyone please relax and take a chill pill. I live everyone in this thread, Tim is a great guy who brought us some very cool info in the past about Vinnie's guitars.

Lets all take a step back and look somewhere else.

I myself didn't respond to this thread initially as I am out of my depth discussing a lot of the issues mentioned. I enjoy Vinnie's music but can't dissect the nuances, so I was waiting to see what others came up with. And now this.......

[Slayer]

Vic,
Timbo and Timstar both from Kissfaq are 2 different individuals and I believe that Timstar posts here as Kissfaq

[doublev2]

Still find it funny he has opted not to talk about music after getting annoyed no one was talking music. But I am.cool with chilling and am curious to hear what music stuff timbo has to say

[doublev2]

I believe thattimeofyear87 was the guy who took pictures at namm of tom Paleckis guitars and then vv stole them for website and online catalog. Tim am I correct?
Tim let get this behind us and move on.
By the way I guess you spoke to diane at namm? Do you have any stories? What did you think when vv used your pictures after originally calling them bootleg pictures?

[shramiac]

No, that was Timstar that took the pictures! Of course there's the third Tim here.....

[doublev2]

That time of year posted the pics here under his acoustic I believe so I think he is timstar

[doublev2]

Looked at his history here and he is the guy who took the namm pictures that vv put a message out were bootleg pictures and should be removed even though vv then used them without permission. Also he said some pretty anti vinnie stuff back then too.

[shramiac]

Oh ok.

[poserboy71]

Fuck him !

Oh wait, Humorous emoticons get lost on this guy !

[doublev2]

no reason to fight. lets all start again and just keep everything cool. I am sorry if I have said anything they thatimeofyear1987 didn't care for.

[poserboy71]

no reason to fight. lets all start again and just keep everything cool. I am sorry if I have said anything they thatimeofyear1987 didn't care for.

I am not.

There are about 10-12 people on this forum that casual posters shouldn't tell to MOVE ON.

[KISSFAQ]

Vic,
Timbo and Timstar both from Kissfaq are 2 different individuals and I believe that Timstar posts here as Kissfaq

Um, no. That would be me...

[shramiac]

I'm cheesed off because I actually answered the questions!!!!

Can't get no respect!

[Slayer]

Vic,
Timbo and Timstar both from Kissfaq are 2 different individuals and I believe that Timstar posts here as Kissfaq

Um, no. That would be me...

I'm sorry if I had a senior citizen moment and got confused.
Would you be OK with reminding me the name that you use at Kissfaq? I tried to visit and cross reference but I had and issue viewing the website as it looks like it is going through an update or maintenance. I really enjoy Kissfaq but I haven't visited there as frequently as here so it is factual to say that I'm less informed with the folks there. I do remember you kindly sharing news and information here and we thank you for that.

Kev

[AceAlive1]

i don't think his style ever "evolved", he just knew how to play it.

he was like randy rhoads, he could play the commercial poppy rhythm guitar or do what he did on stage with KISS at the drop of a hat and sound great doing both......then venture into classical too. smart smart man.

[Slayer]

He did really play some varied music over 20 years it is true to say

K