VVV and Washburn

VVV · Post by **VVV** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:48 pm

For those that haven't seen this before, check it the story behind the VVV Washburn prototype...

http://www.vintagewashburn.com/Electric ... ature.html

VVV · Post by **VVV** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:49 pm

"Nothing will change my pink Jackson. It's a big part of me."

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:17 pm

Pity that it was made in 88' and not 90' as it's featured in the pre- ASG photo shoot! Guess they can't get all the facts right all the time!

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:32 pm

Nothing will change my pink Johnson. It's a big part of me.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:42 pm

One of my VVI fanclub mags has that quote about Vinnie working with Washburn, he did want his fans to know this was meant to be happening.

I've emailed Darren to see if he's got any more info since making the page and if he got hold of Steve who made it.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:11 pm

Ha ha, seems yourself and Dino have bumped heads with Darren already. He knows the guitar predates 1990 but hasn't changed his page.

http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13598

DarrenD · Post by **DarrenD** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:48 am

Hello all. This is Darren from vintage washburn.

You are right about the year. It was around '88 or '89 right
when Steve Davies starting making and designing guitars for Washburn. The
guitar was built by the luthier Steve Davies in Seattle (also known as
Stephen Davies). Steve Davies had his own company in Seattle since '78
called Stephen's Stringed Instruments (check extendedcutaway.com) and he
is mostly known for his invention of the "Stephens Extended Cutaway" which
you can see on the Nuno Bettencourt N4 models (and a few others).

Washburn liked Davies' extended cutaway design, licensed it, and hired
Davies to produce the early production of the N4 at his Seattle shop.
Steve was an extremely talented luthier and Washburn knew this, and when
Washburn was trying to get Vinnie on the roster they made Steve design the
double-V version of the guitar. The guitar was finished, decals were
made, and for some reason the deal never went though. Steve wasn't sure
why it didn't happen but he remembers Washburn being quite upset because
they had to pay Davies for the guitar to be built, planning, etc. and
nothing happened because of it. That's all he recalls for the most part.
He has left the luthier and guitar industry since the mid '90s.

So there really isn't any hard details on it. Steve Davies definitely
built it but, he didn't know what the business side of it was. I emailed
the former Washburn CEO and he claimed he didn't remember what happened.
I have no idea where the guitar is now. It never popped up.

Also in '96 when Grover Jackson was the head of the custom shop there was
a rumor they tried getting Vinnie on the roster once again. Grover left
soon after and nothing was heard of again. I used to be in contact with
Grover but have not heard back from him regarding the topic.

I have been meaning to get in contact with some Vinnie fans for some while to get more information. I was told a few years ago from some Washburn people that the VV Washburn signature was all a rumor and it never existed, so I never did a page on it. Washburn denied everything regarding the guitar or they claimed no information existed on it. This changed when I talked a few VV fans and Richard Weikum, who was Steve Davies' right hand man (who built the guitar). Davies has left the guitar business long ago but still had his warehouse with storage. Richard bought Davies' supplies and tools in Seattle recently, and when scrolling around the shop he found old Washburn VV decals, so there's hard proof that Washburn did plan to mass produce the guitar to a degree and endorse Vinnie.

I have been trying to find videos on him playing it but I was never sure which tours of videos he played it on, if at all. Can you guys point me in the right direction?

DarrenD · Post by **DarrenD** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:07 am

Does anyone know when exactly the pre-release photo shoot took place? Davies came on board in mid-late '87 for Washburn and he must have been put to work on it soon afterwards. Please disregard my '89 and '90 comments as I was unsure that the photo shoot took place around then. I am unsure about the specs of the guitar but I'm assuming it was very similar to the Jackson regarding scale length, woods, etc.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:07 am

Hi. Great to hear from you.
he got it just as vvi split up in the summer of 88. Strangely he had carvin and ibanez build the same guitar and specs/colors about the same time.
only one good photo exists which is on the banner to this forum.. the white and gold. A group photo of vvi with a small snippit exists. Also Andre labelle the session drummer on vv' s first solo project guitars from hell..has a photo of I think the studio manager playing the washburn which suggests to me it was most likely the favoured guitar for that recording. Vinnie never played live after vvi broke up and never made a video so the washburn was never really made public. I believe washburn did announce in a guitar magazine end of year issue that they were making vv a guitar.
Grover Jackson and vinnie left each other on bad terms according to Grover and carvin also had fallen out with vinnie. No one knows anything about the ibanez apart from it was in the love kills video during the solo.
If you can get Steve to speak it would be a great honour. We would love to know the specs of the guitar. All the best. d

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:12 am

Also those decals would be of great interest to us. If he wants to sell I am sure someone here would be delighted to own them.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:14 am

The photo shoot was around July 1988. Washburn announced the guitar December 1987

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:21 am

Sorry the band shot was July or early august 1988. The picture drew posted on this thread maybe within a year after vvi broke up or around the time of the split so anytime from July 88 to 1989.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:27 am

The usual specs were maple body and neck , ebony fingerboard, Duncan humbuckers , one paf type, not sure the other. Non fine tuning original Floyd rose. I head the carvin may have had poplar wings, but that's not at all confirmed.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:36 am

I would love a decal !!!

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:22 am

A decal would be great, yes!!

It seems Vinnie was really shopping around and based on his prior work had a few different shops make him a guitar, of which the prototype was the only one made. This ended with the Pear a few years later.

Washburn however is the only one Vinnie has stated he would be working with to make his new signature guitar, as he did through the fan club, so it was all meant to happen. This is the story of a lot of things though, something is meant to happen and then nothing. More than likely, going on what happened to other deals is that they couldn't come to an agreement on the $$$ side of things.

Steve wouldn't know about this part and it's unfortunate that Washburn the company are playing the deny, deny game in respects to Vinnie and this guitar. Bloody annoying too.

Darren, have you tried Washburn again, this time with evidence of the guitar and decals?

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:41 am

I think the washburn looked to have the best access to the fret board.

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:54 am

I would actually like to know if Steve can tell us where the non fine tuning Floyd for this guitar came from. Whether Vinnie supplied it or just specced it and they had to find it.

DarrenD · Post by **DarrenD** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:28 am

I will see if I can get a clear picture of the decal instead of just the silkscreen. I think Rich said there were around 6 of them. As for selling them, I think I asked sometime ago and he might have been hesitant in letting them out of the shop. It might start a little fury with Washburn and I don't blame him. I will talk to him sometime and see if he found anything else. The shop has a lot of leftovers and he even found some blueprints of rare guitar from the Stephens Stringed Instruments days. If the blueprint was found for the VV that would be a splendid surprise, but I wouldn't bank on it.

I have sent proof to Washburn with decals, but the customer service has nothing on it - and they are correct. Washburn keeps virtually no data on their older models, much less prototypes. In 1997 their system crashed and most of their vintage database was gone. Everyone at Washburn is new and they don't have much knowledge about the "old" days. The only data gathered is from the catalogs and word of mouth. They focus on selling guitars and not making a heritage or vintage market, and I believe that is hurting them greatly. The only real detailed information I get is by talking with the old employees and luthiers from that era, and many times the memories can get hazy thinking that far back.

As for Washburn and Steve Davies, there is a little bit of bad blood between them. Nothing is exactly for certain but I guess Davies kind of got screwed by Washburn royalty and license wise for his patents, cost fees, and designs. He stopped working for them in late '91 even though Washhburn still used his SEC design. Stephens Stringed Instruments lasted until '97 I think. I heard that their custom guitars are absolutely amazing. I have personally never asked about the details because it is a sore subject, but like many things in the guitar industry people get the shaft and crazy stuff happens. Steve was a proponent of the early computer uprise in the late 80s and has since been in that field making much more money than the luthiery field I imagine. Steve is very helpful and answers my questions but he doesn't like going into detail on some matters. Washburn tends to dissociate their former connections with Steve Davies even though the N4 is their best selling custom shop model and they still use the patent logo to this day. Richard, his former employee and owner of his old stock, is an extremely talented luthier as well and he has been of help to me when discussing the old days at SSI.

I asked the former Washburn CEO if he remembered any details but he claims not. I'm sure he would remember details of trying to endorse VV, but I can understand not wanting to get involved in something so long ago. I'm sure the details are quite simple: Washburn wants VV, they pay Steve to make the guitar, VV gets guitar, Washburn and VV can't make a deal - and the rest is history. It probably all happened in a short period of time and was a common thing with a lot of endorsing artists still to this day. I'm sure it all came down to money in the long run. Vinnie very well could still have the guitar, but someone would have to contact him and that may not be so easy. I will try to see if Steve remember any of the specific specs of the guitar.

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:55 am

Thanks Darren. It's actually quite easy to get hold of Vinnie these days. Getting a reply is the hard part.

I suspect he would still have it and that it was to be the start of a business relationship but the deal could not be worked out that both parties were happy with.

It is interesting that Washburn want to ignore their past and heritage, that can be lucrative for them one day. The computer crash is unfortunate but a company like that should have had back ups. There should be some stuff on paper somewhere too you would think.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:16 am

Genebaby wrote:Thanks Darren. It's actually quite easy to get hold of Vinnie these days. Getting a reply is the hard part.

I suspect he would still have it and that it was to be the start of a business relationship but the deal could not be worked out that both parties were happy with.

It is interesting that Washburn want to ignore their past and heritage, that can be lucrative for them one day. The computer crash is unfortunate but a company like that should have had back ups. There should be some stuff on paper somewhere too you would think.

Grover said the same thing about Jackson guitars. NO BLUEPRINTS.

These guys weren't thinking about the long term. They were thinking about the cash at hand ,at the moment.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:33 am

I think it may have pissed them off that he also was dealing with carvin and ibanez. I never asked vinnie about his guitars as much as I wanted to.. he said he never does interviews. I should have asked before I gave the board and domain to him but I would have felt like a scuzzball in doing so.. kind of forcing info out of him I felt was uncool.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:21 pm

Not one of the companies will give details?!?!?! There must be blueprints out there! It's a mystery????

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:22 pm

When I contacted carvin in 88 after seeing vinnie using a carvin and before vvi broke up they said they will not make it and no longer work with vinnie.
When I spoke to ibanez they knew nothing of it and I think drew asked around and no one knew anything at ibanez.
Washburn customer service flat out denied they made the vv guitar. Looks like the guy in Seattle maybe able to enlighten us.

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:52 pm

Boy, not a lot of love at the guitar companies Vinnie worked with. Tom seems to be his most long standing guitar maker.

More info from Steve would be cool. Did he ever meet/talk with Vinnie? What specs was he working with?

DarrenD · Post by **DarrenD** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:03 am

Wow I totally forgot about him working with Ibanez. It's too bad a deal couldn't have been made between one of the companies.

I'm not sure if Steve met or discussed specs with Vinnie or not. I know he said it was a very difficult guitar to make by hand. I will check back with him and see if he remembers more details from that period. I'm guessing he took a Jackson and based most of the specs off of it with few variations here and there - such as the V inlays.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:32 am

To me the washburn looked more refined than the carvin and washburn. I think the ibanez and washburn both had the v inlays.. it must have been frustrating to spend all that time and money on the guitar and then find out two other guitar companies were working on the same thing without each other knowing.
Darren , really happy you came on here and look forward to hearing news from Steve .

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:36 am

Vinnie had endorsements with all 3 companies before they made the vv model . Vv had carvin amps and the double neck in 87. He was in an ad for ibanez effect pedals and also endorsed washburns acoustic guitars.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:07 am

doublev wrote:To me the Washburn looked more refined than the carvin and washburn. I think the ibanez and washburn both had the v inlays.. it must have been frustrating to spend all that time and money on the guitar and then find out two other guitar companies were working on the same thing without each other knowing.
Darren , really happy you came on here and look forward to hearing news from Steve .

I don't see an issue with this. As far as I'm concerned and from what I have read about artists endorsing guitars, several companies make guitars and the artist chooses which guitar suits them. I would say that the guitarist actually gives a shit about the quality of the instrument enough to give different companies the chance to outshine each other. It is basically each company auditioning for the guitarist.
Unless Vinnie had a contract with one of these companies, I believe he was well within his rights to search for the proper guitar company to execute his vision.

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:30 am

It's just too bad that nothing came of each of them. It would have been cool to have another official guitar line after the Jacksons. Maybe NAMM will give us something finally.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:04 am

Very good point Rick. I apologize. The strange thing is 4 guitar makers never made the guitar available apart from that small secret custom shop run by Jackson. Jackson never used that guitar in any publicity or catalogs and only used vinnie before vvi started.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:51 am

No apologies necessary for we are all collecting opinions to help shape our own.

As far as endorsements, Jackson was for the most part (except for a few ads) AGAINST rock star endorsements . I believe they wanted the perception to be that the guitars can stand on their own merits and you don't need to fool Joe Public into buying it with a big celebrity. Those who played Jackson Guitars WANTED to play them because they were the best of the best. These guitarists payed for these instruments.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:39 am

well thanks. i was also saying sorry to vinnie. i used to only promote the positive sides of things as everyone knows. Its hard to do that thee days but its always best to give the benefit of doubt when it is based on no facts.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:46 am

rick, i know jackson didn't have endorsees at the start but around the time of VVI they did. And what I am saying is its clear the break down with Vinnie and Jackson was very soon after he received his VV model as with all the other companies. A pattern maybe. I think a break down between him and Grover happened as soon as 1986 as Jackson seemed to end all trace of VV at that time. http://www.gearwire.com/media/gg-nov86- ... l-huge.jpg

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:58 am

Hi Darren (vintagewashburn.com) ....Great info on the Steve Stevens models.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:25 pm

doublev wrote:rick, i know jackson didn't have endorsees at the start but around the time of VVI they did. And what I am saying is its clear the break down with Vinnie and Jackson was very soon after he received his VV model as with all the other companies. A pattern maybe. I think a break down between him and Grover happened as soon as 1986 as Jackson seemed to end all trace of VV at that time. http://www.gearwire.com/media/gg-nov86- ... l-huge.jpg

Still ,I don't believe Jackson Guitars gave away or paid for endorsements until after Grover sold it. Sure ,they had ads with rock stars in them but those rockers weren't compensated in guitars or money.

To this day, that ad with Vinnie, Jake, Vai, and others still draws questions of "who's who" because Jackson was about the guitar and not the individual.

Dino, you are absolutely correct in your assessment of Vinnie's relationships with guitar companies. I never bothered to look at that timeline. VERY INTERESTING PATTERN INDEED.

As for Vinnie's relationship with Grover, they were rumored to team up again for that Washburn Viper in 1996-97 (?). We all know how Grover feels about Vinnie. He misses him and wants at least their friendship back.

DarrenD · Post by **DarrenD** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:43 pm

I'm a little confused regarding the Jackson VV model. So Jackson never officially made a VV model or mass produced it?

As for the Washburn "Viper" model, it was a rumor that surfaced years ago but I have found no evidence if it was actually true or not. The Viper was basically a Washburn MG superstrat style guitar (which were amazing guitars btw), and I question the validity that Vinnie would endorse a body shape outside of the double v. Has he been known to play other styles of guitar prominently?

I used to be in contact with Grover Jackson when I started the website, and he was very helpful discussing his days as the head of the Washburn custom shop. He was involved with amazing models such as the USA Mercury series, Bantam basses, and Steve Stevens signature. He worked at the custom shop from late '92-'96. I think I burnt my bridge with him from all the questions I asked him about the MG models. VV never came up in the discussion and I never asked him about it. A few months ago I sent him a question regarding the rumors of VV coming aboard in '96 but haven't heard back. Now days I believe he started another guitar line that will be presented at NAMM and I hope it goes well for him.

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:19 pm

Jackson had very few body styles that were Jackson originals. Rhoads, Kelly, Soloist, Dinky, King V. I actually read today where Vinnie said in a guitar magazine that Jackson were coming up with a VV model and that the only other one they had after a person was the Rhoads. There actually also was the Kelly.

Anyhow, it was not a model like those, but it was otherwise recognised as the Jackson Vinnie Vincent guitar. It was available as a custom order from the Custom Shop. Like Steve, they didn't like building it as it was quite complex and costly to produce, so their initial reason for not making it was because they didn't want to! Some Custom Shop!!

Vinnie has been seen with strat shaped guitars ( a Charvel) and even a Les Paul, in his time with Kiss, but is not well known at all for playing anything other than a Rhoads V or a VVV. It is doubtful he would endorse a strat shaped guitar. It's not his style.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:15 pm

well as for being offered as custom shop.. this was not the case in the 80s. I (well my dad) tried on many occasions to order the Jackson VV custom shop (calling Jackson and asking at many dealers). I think some were made but I think you had to know someone. They never had it listed anywhere as an item to buy as custom.

However in the late 90s and early '00s you could get it from Jackson Custom Shop. Again it wasn't listed, but I asked in 2001 and 2002 and they would do it (and they did for others inc the cracked mirror one)

So basically in the 80s it was hard as hell to buy even if you had the cash.. in the late 90s , early '00s you could get it, but it wasn't exactly advertised. At the time I was selling guitars and not buying so I didn't buy one (idiot I am).

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:35 am

It was available Dino, I don't know why you guys couldn't get one built. The 80's was the original run and a few were made. How many for sure we don't know. I don't know how that guy Brett managed to get the cracked mirror one done, but he did and kudos to him, I love that guitar.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:50 am

well i never saw it listed anywhere. I was a bigger vv fan then than i am know and my dad called the custom shop 4 or 5 times and they flat out said no. This was in '86, '87 at least twice in '88 and also in '89. I also tried to order through dealers in New Orleans as well as a few naional stores that were listed in guitar magazines.

I really have to say that officially is wasn't avaiable unless you can show me something.

I knew Jackson would make them in the late 90s and early 2000s because some guys on pyro's board were talking about them and one guy bought one.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:58 am

A shape like the VVV was never on a list like a Rhoads or a Soloist, but when you place an order you specify the shape you want and provide drawing's and pictures if that helps.

Some of the 80's catalogs came with body templates, but only for the main standard shapes Jackson did. The same rules apply to the Death Angel guitar. It's only pictured in a catalog but there is nowhere referencing that you can order it. I know someone did, he just asked for the guitar Rob from Death Angel designed.

I feel that had you gone into a dealer and placed an order you would have had luck. Remember, all Jacksons up to 1990 were only custom ordered, no matter the specs. So they were all Custom Shop guitars. Jackson did not make a plain, white Soloist until a dealer submitted an order for one, either because a customer wanted it, or they wanted it for floor stock.

Maybe they they didn't really want to build it so said no to dissuade you. An order would have been different, you needed to go through a dealer who will take care of the rest.

Jackson did not like making the original Kelly guitars with the cut outs, a lot of work in those cut outs, so they stopped doing it unless they were specified on the Work Order, and then cost extra of course.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:03 am

i get what you say, but they never listed it anywhere..ever or used a picture of it in a catalog. so kind of what i am saying is.. they didn't make it easy at all.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:05 am

and i took pictures into the guitar store and we even placed a deposit but they didn't do it. I did it in 88 after seeing the 2 pick up silver/purple and i gave them that very photo to make an exact copy. still nothing.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:06 am

It seems you were not destined to have one Dino. The guitar gods have spoken.

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:12 am

funny.. i couldnt believe it when carvin said 'no' as well. i was a rich kid (not know however) so it served me right.. i was a little shit basically.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:41 am

I can picture you having a tantrum on the floor, kicking your arms and legs. "I want a VVV, waaaahhhh"....lol...

doublev · Post by **doublev** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:52 am

ha, i look at photos of me at 13 / 14 and i would hate the kid i was. my dad thought i was going to make a career as a guitar player, god bless him. so he bought me whatever i wanted. He was a guitar player himself . he had moserites and wandre's.. all pretty nice, but not my thing at the time.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:07 am

Jackson really sound like a bunch of slack-jawed yokels. Gottta say, I'm a little disappointed in hearing all this. Always held them in high regards. A custom shop that doesn't make custom guitars...what da?

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:12 am

The main reason they use to not make a guitar/shape these days is owner copyright. This is due to Fender, who are so lame they won't even do a guitar like Jake E Lee's white guitar. It's actually a Fender that Charvel worded on but you can't order a white Charvel to the same specs. It's just a white Strat!!!! Same goes for the blue one, you can't get that pickup combo, colour and bridge.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:22 am

Yer, but (not) making a VVV for a customer that willing to pay full price...Even Vinnie advertised it as a product for sale for around $2000 on MTV....what's the story with that. Just lazy.