The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

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Sandimas
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The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Sandimas » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:36 am

And here's why:

The whole thing has been refinished, headstock included, thus losing the original hand painted gold logo. We can also discount the pickguard, trem and pickups as non significant, they are all "movable estate".

What can't be disputed however are several things:
- the guitar is undoubtedly ex VV, as it's the same one as he had at the Expo's
- the fret ends have binding nibs like on a Gibson Les Paul, which Jackson only did until 1986
- the shoulders of the body join between the 18th and the 19th fret, and this is a feature of only the first few guitars from 1983, subsequent examples have the shoulders joining nearer the 20th fret. Check the Cardiff pics against any 22 fret Rhoads from later in 1983 onwards and you can see this (I copied a later 83 black Rhoads and a 1985 red one below to show that the body meets the neck at a higher fret).
- the mother of pearl inlays have the same dark and light "fingerprints" depending on the angle the light hits them, as I've tried to portray on the pics below. I know there's debate over whether the 83/84 Rhoads has rosewood or ebony, as the Cardiff guitar is clearly rosewood, but again, the old pics speak for themselves - it's Rosewood on the other pics below, Ebony is jet black, not that dark brown colour. And also, Jackson copied the original spec for the First Five reissue Gold sparkle - including the rosewood and reverse shark inlays.


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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby poserboy71 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:41 am

Great job Sandi !!! Maybe we can finally put this to rest.


I wonder if there is any writing on the tape that appears on the top SIDE of the guitar that faces Vinnie as he plays. During this time , he taped picks on the wing.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby shramiac » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:57 am

Dectective Sandimas! I bow to you! Great info! We can put that one to bed then!
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Genebaby » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:23 am

Why oh why would they refinish the headstock though? If Jackson do a refin, especially on a guitar with this history they would have redid the headstock exactly as before, with original logo, or if asked to, redo it in the pink also with orginal logo.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby poserboy71 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:11 am

I'll have to take an EXPERT guess and say because off Vinnie's tarnished association with Jackson Guitars, he had some other company or local guy fix and respray the guitar.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby mfoster » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:18 am

Very cool detective work ! Great job
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Brooklyn_Born » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:22 pm

Bloody brilliant work Dimas!! Thank you for clarifying :D I always thought it was a later model... What a shame Vinnie modified this historical guitar so heavily!
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Streetbeat » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:10 am

How this guitar ended in Hard Rock ? Did Vinnie sell it ? i had serious cash waiting for Vinnie sell me some vintage guitars thru a guitar company of my trust last year, but he declined , how come he got rid of this one ?

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Brooklyn_Born » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:19 am

Timing...
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby FREDDYB3 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:52 am

I just have one question ?? If we all agree that Rosewood darkens with age , then how did the fretboard on the Cardiff guitar get so much lighter then any of the other pics of the Gold/Pink RRV ? The Cardiff guitar fretboard is CLEARLY rosewood. There isn't 1 SINGLE photo anywhere of Vinnie with the Kiss RRV's that show it to be anything near the light colored, clear red grained rosewood board that the Cardiff guitar has. Sorry but in my opinion (which means no more or less than anyone else's opinion ) this is where this theory falls apart! Not that it really matters much, just saying : - )

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby poserboy71 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:06 am

The clincher for me is the shading on the inlays. Check out the photos above closely !!!
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby FREDDYB3 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:09 am

Can we get a full unedited pic of the second pic in the 1st thread post (of a pink RRV )
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby poserboy71 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:11 am

I notice the different truss rod cover. That could have been changed when the headstock was repaired and refinished. :? :? :?
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby FREDDYB3 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:17 am

None of the pics in Sandimas' post show the Cardiff guitar ???


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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Sandimas » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:46 pm

The close up shot of the pink guitar shoulders which I showed right below the Vinnie live shot is from Dino's Cardiff pics.

I'm betting the fretboard on the Cardiff guitar is bone dry hence it looks light.

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby mp5999 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:54 am

they possibly cleaned the fretboard thouroughly when it got the refin which would lighten it up if it was a bit grimey from play.
I know this thread goes hand in hand with the rosewood or ebony post so I will pitch in my 2 cents on both posts here. Thanks to Sandimas for saving me some work here too!
I mentioned last year I would shed some light on the evidence that I had that the gold creatures Rhoads was later painted pink for the LIU era, and had a rosewood fretboard. Somewhere on the forum is my story about when I went to NY in the mid 90's to speak with VV and his atty about purchasing the guitar. You can read the whole story elsewhere but in a nutshell he offered me the pink liu guitar for 3grand cash. When I told him I was only interested in the gold one he said same price but I'd have to come back in a couple weeks. His atty did in fact call be back a couple weeks later but by then it was too fishy. Of course in hindsight I should have bought anything and everything I could have but we all know how hindsight works! I now think he wanted the extra time to paint the pink one gold so I would buy it.

Anyways, here are some pics I have gathered showing the rosewood fretboard. Trust me, I really really wish it was ebony as I always have preferred it but its just not ebony. I will also include some pics of my various guitars to show you how sometimes rosewood can be dark nearly ebony like. One pic show my custom shop Jackson dinky that has a rosewood board that as you can see is as dark as some of my ebony boards. Lemme know if you have any thoughts or questions.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby mp5999 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:06 am

ok, heres the other fretboard pics. Each of these guitars has a rosewood fretboard, notice the difference in some of the colors though.
necks.jpg
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the next 2 pics (one with flash and one without) show my Rhoads rr1 with ebony laying with my Rhoads 30th anniversary VV that has rosewood board.
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this one show an ebony board on each side of the rosewood, just showing that different angles, light, etc can make it look lighter or darker which is why I think alot of the shots from the cotn and liu tour come off as looking ebony.
necks4.jpg
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Genebaby » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:14 am

Except for the first one, all those Creatures shots look like roseswood to me.

Without a reference it can be difficult to judge depending on a number of factors. Your yellow Dinky sure looks like an ebony board among some rosewoods but your 30th Rhoads sticks out like rosewood against the ebony of the other.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Streetbeat » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:17 am

cotn looks like rosewood

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Brooklyn_Born » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:33 am

I can't believe he painted the gold guitar pink, what was he thinking??! I would have been all over that for 3k! Hard Rock would have paid more for it in the end...
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby shramiac » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:33 am

I can't believe he painted the gold guitar pink, what was he thinking??! I would have been all over that for 3k! Hard Rock would have paid more for it in the end...
Probably ordered to paint it??????

I don't know! Just throwing it out there!
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby mp5999 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:53 pm

Very possible , wandered that myself before. To bad Vinnies such a fuckup, he could probably write a great tell all behind the scenes kiss book about the gene/Paul dictatorship.

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:04 am

It's hard to know what's real or not. The guy in the podcast seemed to think it was a cheap fake just like the guys at Jackson but the paint job could be why. Vinnie has a history of selling guitars that are not totally what he says they are.

As for rosewood vs ebony , a maple body/neck with ebony is going to be very bright so rosewood to warm it up slightly, and a mahogany neck/body is very warm and ebony would brighten the sound slightly .. I would choose the fingetboard based on the body neck wood but I find Brazilian rosewood sounds great but lacks the sustain of ebony or maple.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby FREDDYB3 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:17 am

A couple of points for thought:
The one factor that has never been mentioned is builders use of "fretboard dye" all wood grain and color is not the same (i.e one piece of ebony will not have the same grain or color as another) Fretboard dye is used to create the consistent even color and is used more than people realize, including Jackson. It's a factor that can't be ignored or discounted.

Dry fretboards.. (aka dirty or un-oiled) usually become lighter in color, they appear darker when freshly oiled.
This is particularly true in the case of Ebony.

Vinnie said back then (in a fan club article) that the combination of Maple and Ebony was his preference.

There were at least 2 Gold metal flake RRv's owned by Vinnie while in Kiss. We know that 1 was repainted Salmon pink. There is no evidence anywhere, that proves definitively what happen to the unpainted one.
In addition we know there were an undetermined amount of Pink RRV's made afterwards. Those facts alone make it difficult to know. Shadows on inlays, fret ends or "nubs" offer no distinct proof as photo's look different in every lighting condition and because he started out with 2 identical gold guitars and there is no proof of what happened to both, we can never be 100% sure of which guitar we are looking at in any photo. Sorry, but showing pics of other guitars that have similar features proves nothing either. Just some final thoughts on a subject that I have studied for years and years.

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby n3p » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:23 am

Is the Cardiff Hard Rock still around? If not then i wonder where the guitar is
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby FREDDYB3 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:35 am

Hi n3p, happy new year my friend.

Someone posted in another tread (not sure where) that the Hard Rock in Cardiff did close down.
To my knowledge, it's unclear what happened to the guitar on display there.
Maybe Dino has some info on that ?

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Skwint » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:00 am

memo@hardrock.com - maybe they would answer on its where abouts.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby n3p » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:14 am

Happy New Year Freddy! 8)

When I posted before I was on my phone so didn't really have a chance to check if it was still around. Just looked and it seems that the hard rock has closed.

Skwint - thanks for the email, I'll contact them in a sec. Would be good if it ended up in the london hard rock, then I could go take some photos. Fingers crossed!

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby 1031 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:09 am

You guys are more knowledgeable on the V guitars than I, but I can throw this in the mix... A metal flake or small flake guitar is very difficult to refinish and allmost always is done as a over spray. Because it requires a compete removal of all the flake paint, I also believe by this time they were using poly to paint, Poly is a bitch to remove and the clear goes on a bit thick on the clear coat with the flake guitars. So the clear would have been sanded down a bit and then over sprayed the new color. You almost always can spot a over sprayed guitar with a keen eye.
So anyone that actually seen the guitar in question may have been able to spot it.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby n3p » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:31 pm

We sincerely appreciate you contacting the Hard Rock Memorabilia Department. We've received your inquiry and will keep on file. If a need arises in the future for this particular piece(s), we will contact you directly. Thank you for reaching out to us and your interest in the Hard Rock Cafe.


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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby shramiac » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:30 am

I wrote to them too but my reply was.........







Exactly the same! :(
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Genebaby » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:56 am

Pretty shitty reply to a specific enquiry.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Streetbeat » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:42 am

autoreply

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Billy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:34 pm

I'll have 2 c it whenever i go to whales!
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby poserboy71 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:25 pm

Billy, The guitar is reported to be in Thailand now.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby Billy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:45 am

Billy, The guitar is reported to be in Thailand now.

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:29 am

Close but I believe Indonesia.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:19 pm

Maybe you can do a virtual tour like you could in cardiff .

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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby n3p » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:25 pm

Would be great if anyone could confirm. I'm due a trip to SE Asia soon. I also have family and friends scattered over Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. who might be willing to investigate
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:10 pm

To be honest paint job was not good.
If it is the kiss era rr v its fooled a few including grover jackson . But I see the similarities in some inlays .
I would no way travel to Indonesia to see it. Uk based members other than me didnt even go to cardiff to see it.
If it were original paint and trem etc or his vv model then maybe more interesting.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:13 pm

The only reason I can imagine that he painted headsyock pink was for boyz r gonna rock video to try and match vv model.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby shramiac » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:07 am

That is indeed the sad thing. That the original gold (most likely hand painted) Jackson logo was painted over. The body going from gold to pink for me not a biggy! But the headstock......
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:02 am

Yeah big mistake if it is the original. Sorry to say I dont believe anything coming from vinnie.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:03 am

Vinnie loves screwing people over and thats why its hard to sympathize with him.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:04 am

9th fret mop inlay to me doesnt match.
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Re: The Cardiff Guitar is the 1983/4 Gold/Pink Rhoads

Postby doublev2 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:09 am

Also the dull 5th fret inlay does not appear to be dull in other shots.
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