Why would a former multi-million dollar band look to Vinnie for direction?

[Luxor]

Because they peaked in 1977 and since then, they were on their way down. Creatively etc.

The Dynasty Tour lost millions. The album turned off alot of their hardcore base. Tons of promoters lost a fortune on KISS.

Unmasked Sales plunge big time. They can't even do a 2nd 3,000 seater in NYC. They can't tour in the US. No demand for them.
Their supposed big shows in Australia and the UK were big money losers.

Kiss was supposed to do a hard rock album. They couldn't do it. They didn't have the goods.
After a hard rock album was impossible to do, they went with a concept album that put them completely in the ground.

The label should have rejected the album and made them start over. They didn't. They shipped 200,000 in the US and 50,000 of those were returned. The Elder initially only did 150,000. Kiss was DEAD.

So after all those failures and KISS couldn't even do a hard rock album the year earlier, why would Gene and Paul look to Bob Kulick for direction etc?? Bob was just a session player pretty much. He had pretty much no songwriting ability. But Gene and Paul had sunk so far, they were looking at him to guide them.

Its hilarious to see some want to change KISStory and act like Gene and Paul knew what they were doing when they were completely lost. Oh, its shocking they would look to Vinnie (after Bob). But at least Vinnie had the goods. He had already gotten "Tears" on Peter's album. They recorded at least 6 (maybe more) of Vinnie's songs for COTN. They heard tracks like Boyz Are Gonna Rock (which later became On The Eighth Day).

Shoot on the next album, Vinnie co-write 9 of the 10 songs and yet people act like Gene and Paul weren't looking towards him to provide the direction etc?

Then all those bad albums of KISS following whatever trend....because they didn't trust themselves.

After the massive failure of HITS, the label looks into why nobody is buying KISS albums. The label is putting out 3 videos and nobody is buying them. And they see the results. What happens, Vinnie is called back once again.

And even though a totally different producer ... KISS sounds the closest they have to COTN and LIU.

And with Ezrin, we know how KISS sounded like pre-Vinnie. And just like with the Killers track, GG is remixed to sound heavier.... just like 2 of the Killers songs. We know how Kiss was before Vinnie entered and after.

We know Gene and Paul had no idea what they were doing. They were lost.

Some who don't know KISStory or Vindication can't stand Vinnie so much they are in THE NILE .... DENIAL.

Kiss went from being leaders to followers. They were completely unsure of themselves. But could you blame them? They went from selling millions to selling 150,000. They went from playing to packed houses to not even a 2nd 3,000 seater in their own home town of 7 or 8M at the time. They were finished and they had put themselves there.

They even had to crawl back to Vinnie in 1991 because they couldn't sell any albums and they didn't know how to get their music back on track.

Can you imagine what Psycho Circus could have been if they had only used Vinnie? I mean, Peter cut a Vinnie song. Ace tried to release a Vinnie song. Gene and Paul Vinnie songs. All four of them sang Vinnie songs.

[Genebaby]

No.

[Luxor]

No.

Did you ever both to read all the stuff Bob Kulick said during Killers? I seriously doubt it

[Genebaby]

Bob was a very annoyed guy. Annoyed at how great he knew he was, and how little attention/fame/money he got from it. He was like that all the time, getting much worse towards the end as he could see that the situation was not going to change. Many would have killed for the opportunities he had, but he felt differently.

Whatever Killers was to you, to me it was four great new songs I love listening to. I prefer it to some songs on Creatures actually. They are fun songs, great lyrics and the production is just perfect.

[Luxor]

Bob was a very annoyed guy. Annoyed at how great he knew he was, and how little attention/fame/money he got from it. He was like that all the time, getting much worse towards the end as he could see that the situation was not going to change. Many would have killed for the opportunities he had, but he felt differently.

Whatever Killers was to you, to me it was four great new songs I love listening to. I prefer it to some songs on Creatures actually. They are fun songs, great lyrics and the production is just perfect.

Maybe if bob had made those comments in 2015 or later, you might have a point. The fact that Bob made them over 20 years ago destroys your point.

Love it all you want. But KISS would have been completely dead in 1982 with that.

[Genebaby]

With no Vinnie there was still going to be an album called Creatures of The Night, with a song called Creatures of The Night, with an amazing metal sound. It's what the band was producing that year. Vinnie had no bearing. His songs just turned up and sounded good with the production as planned. Naked City could have been recorded again in the Creatures style and probably be more like Bob Kulick envisioned it when writing. Instead his song got the Unmasked treatment, which I still like as I don't know any other version, and Vinnie's songs, that he was involved with, got the Creatures treatment, ie, heavy and cool.

[Luxor]

With no Vinnie there was still going to be an album called Creatures of The Night, with a song called Creatures of The Night, with an amazing metal sound. It's what the band was producing that year. Vinnie had no bearing. His songs just turned up and sounded good with the production as planned. Naked City could have been recorded again in the Creatures style and probably be more like Bob Kulick envisioned it when writing. Instead his song got the Unmasked treatment, which I still like as I don't know any other version, and Vinnie's songs, that he was involved with, got the Creatures treatment, ie, heavy and cool.

Doubtful! You might want to learn your Kisstory. The only reason COTN (song) made it on the album is because of I Love It Loud.

And please stop acting like Bob Kulick had much to do with that song. You complained about Bob taking himself too seriously etc. Bob stinks as a songwriter.

With 4 writers and Bob's terrible lack of songwriting ability, you seriously think Bob had alot to do with that song???!

Written by Gene Simmons, Bob Kulick, Vini Poncia, and Emil Thielhelm (better known as Peppy Castro).

You are quoting Bob during this BITTER later years. Heck, Bob trashed KISS for letting Ace play the solo on it.

[VinnieFan]

Luxor,
You’re right on the money. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Vinnie resurrected Kiss. There was no better time to be a Kiss fan than during COTN & LIU.
The best music they put out and the underlying key player was Vinnie.
I saw the LIU show in Chicago UIC Pavilion - February ‘84. I was 26 rows back from center. Vinnie was killing it. They all were. Vinnie chewed the audience up and spat them out.
Killer.

[pullitt]

Spongebob begs to differ.