Its so funny thinking about Gene's lies. The lies about him telling Vinnie what to play etc. Give me a break Gene. Gene is so full of shit! Sadly, some VInnie haters believe every damn lie he says.
After Vinnie saved KISS butt with COTN & LICK IT UP.... being the musical driving force... who did KISS hire as their new guitar player?
Mark St John
So while Gene was calling every single day, trying to get Vinnie back.... KISS brought in another speed guy. So what's that tell you about Gene's lame attacks on Vinnie. He was f'ing lying as usual. Because that's all that guy can do.
Only later did they end up with the guy who blew his audition during Creatures. A guy who couldn't write songs. A guy who certainly wasn't the musical driving force of KISS. And that's one reason why KISS' musical output declined so horribly.
Yeah, I could see them telling Bruce note for note what to play in his solos. That's why Bruce's time is so forgotten in the band. And Bruce didn't get "balls" until Revenge when he had to steal 'guitars from hell'
Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
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shramiac
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
Welllllll....he only got a simple solo on ILIL and didn't get to do the solo on I Still Love You, even though he wrote it, so there's that! And most of the solos he did on CoTN are pretty restrained for Vinnie solos tbh! War Machine is mostly bends and some staccato picking ala Ace (But yes, better).
Yes, they were after a speed guy, as it was the style at the time and that's well documented. They also regret getting Mark.
Paul's saying, "Mark couldn't play the same thing twice" is BS though. You don't get that good a technique by not doing repeated practising.
He was recommended by Grover Jackson and was friends with Holdsworth and did play some nice stuff on Animalize but in reality, shouldn't have been picked. Since Bruce played on Animalize, he should have been the choice there and then.
Interesting that it came out this year that Bruce did audition for CoTN. I'd wager he wasn't the only one who felt intimidated during their audition.
P.S. Bruce co-wrote 9 of the songs on Carnival of Souls.
VVA, I don't think you'll find anyone here who didn't wish that KISS and Vinnie could have kept a working arrangement after LIU. Sadly, it didn't happen.
Yes, they were after a speed guy, as it was the style at the time and that's well documented. They also regret getting Mark.
Paul's saying, "Mark couldn't play the same thing twice" is BS though. You don't get that good a technique by not doing repeated practising.
He was recommended by Grover Jackson and was friends with Holdsworth and did play some nice stuff on Animalize but in reality, shouldn't have been picked. Since Bruce played on Animalize, he should have been the choice there and then.
Interesting that it came out this year that Bruce did audition for CoTN. I'd wager he wasn't the only one who felt intimidated during their audition.
P.S. Bruce co-wrote 9 of the songs on Carnival of Souls.
VVA, I don't think you'll find anyone here who didn't wish that KISS and Vinnie could have kept a working arrangement after LIU. Sadly, it didn't happen.
Promises made, crying in vain, all empty. Never accepting the blame and not letting go of the shame. A river of tears, as months turn to years, all wasted. On someone not willing to change.Now only a shadow remains! 
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VVArchives
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
I don't think Bruce should have ever been in the band. I think that was their downfall. Bruce lacked any set of balls. He pretty much admits it. He sure wasn't going to stand up to Gene or Paul one bit. He wouldn't even stand up as they treated Eric Carr like shit.
Yes, Bruce did have 9 songs on KISS' worst album of all time. And the vast majority of them he was 1 of 3.
a whopping 8 of those 9 songs, he was 1 of 3 writers.
The songs Bruce wrote in KISS pretty much all sucked. Garbage on Asylum, Crazy Nights and Hits. Thankfully, they only gave him one track on Revenge. It was certainly one that never should have been used but at least it was only 1.
You look how bad KISS sank when they didn't have a guy with balls who would try and take over. It didn't matter how big Kiss had gotten. You had one guy who knew KISS was dead and he stepped up. And then he chose to walk away from them.
What did Bruce get for all his loyalty and keeping his mouth shut? Gene and Paul let he and Bob Kulick have $9000 for playing the KISS Kruise once a year. That's how they rewarded loyalty.
Kiss would have been far better off getting a new guitar player every year or every two years that was hungry and not scared of Gene and Paul.
Grover blew it with MSJ. The guy had no writing ability at all. As White Tiger proves. As was he was stuck with Peter Criss. A great singer but he can't write very well.
And Mark's playing on White Tiger was very boring too IMO.
When one thinks how could Animalize could have been if Vinnie had stayed.
One also has to think what the set list on the Animalize tour would have been like had Vinnie stayed.
Would it follow LIU and have 5-6 songs in the normal set list?
And would they still be doing 5 or so songs off LIU on that tour if Vinnie stayed?
and would 4-5 off COTN be included?
Other than maybe R&R All Night and 1 other-- would they have neglected the 70's by then and focused on new KISS?
Yes, Bruce did have 9 songs on KISS' worst album of all time. And the vast majority of them he was 1 of 3.
a whopping 8 of those 9 songs, he was 1 of 3 writers.
The songs Bruce wrote in KISS pretty much all sucked. Garbage on Asylum, Crazy Nights and Hits. Thankfully, they only gave him one track on Revenge. It was certainly one that never should have been used but at least it was only 1.
You look how bad KISS sank when they didn't have a guy with balls who would try and take over. It didn't matter how big Kiss had gotten. You had one guy who knew KISS was dead and he stepped up. And then he chose to walk away from them.
What did Bruce get for all his loyalty and keeping his mouth shut? Gene and Paul let he and Bob Kulick have $9000 for playing the KISS Kruise once a year. That's how they rewarded loyalty.
Kiss would have been far better off getting a new guitar player every year or every two years that was hungry and not scared of Gene and Paul.
Grover blew it with MSJ. The guy had no writing ability at all. As White Tiger proves. As was he was stuck with Peter Criss. A great singer but he can't write very well.
And Mark's playing on White Tiger was very boring too IMO.
When one thinks how could Animalize could have been if Vinnie had stayed.
One also has to think what the set list on the Animalize tour would have been like had Vinnie stayed.
Would it follow LIU and have 5-6 songs in the normal set list?
And would they still be doing 5 or so songs off LIU on that tour if Vinnie stayed?
and would 4-5 off COTN be included?
Other than maybe R&R All Night and 1 other-- would they have neglected the 70's by then and focused on new KISS?
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shramiac
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
Actually, King of the Mountain and I'm Alive are the best songs on Asylum, the songs he co-wrote on Crazy Nights are probably the best songs on the album and Boomerang kicks ass!
ALl are better than ILIL, that's for sure! Snoooooooooorrrrrrrre.......................
"$9000 for playing the KISS Kruise"....well, that's $9000/year that Vinnie doesn't get! And that sux.
"You look how bad KISS sank"> You could argue that but, Animalize, Crazy and Smashes (ugh) all outsold CoTN & LIU!
"Kiss would have been far better off getting a new guitar player every year or every two years that was hungry and not scared of Gene and Paul"
What the actual fuck???? You are forgetting something important. KISS is owned by G & P! KISS IS G & P! They are the final say. Did Ace & Peter get equal share when they came back? Pig's arse they did! They were paid sidemen.
"When one thinks how could Animalize could have been if Vinnie had stayed." Agreed. It could have been great!
As for the 70's songs falling out of the setlist! Not a snowflake's chance in Hell. Too many old hardcore fans.
ALl are better than ILIL, that's for sure! Snoooooooooorrrrrrrre.......................
"$9000 for playing the KISS Kruise"....well, that's $9000/year that Vinnie doesn't get! And that sux.
"You look how bad KISS sank"> You could argue that but, Animalize, Crazy and Smashes (ugh) all outsold CoTN & LIU!
"Kiss would have been far better off getting a new guitar player every year or every two years that was hungry and not scared of Gene and Paul"
What the actual fuck???? You are forgetting something important. KISS is owned by G & P! KISS IS G & P! They are the final say. Did Ace & Peter get equal share when they came back? Pig's arse they did! They were paid sidemen.
"When one thinks how could Animalize could have been if Vinnie had stayed." Agreed. It could have been great!
As for the 70's songs falling out of the setlist! Not a snowflake's chance in Hell. Too many old hardcore fans.
Promises made, crying in vain, all empty. Never accepting the blame and not letting go of the shame. A river of tears, as months turn to years, all wasted. On someone not willing to change.Now only a shadow remains!
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VVArchives
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
Odd how you would try and act like Bruce had much of anything to do with those crappy songs that KISS ignored from Asylum.
Once again, Bruce was 1 of 3. He certainly wasn't leading the songwriting ship at all. He was along for the ride.
Then when it came time for Crazy Flop
I'll Fight Hell - 1 of 3
The horrific No X3 - 1 of 3
Hell or High Water It finally didn't take 3 people
The absolutely gosh awful WYWCD - again -it took 3 people to write that garbage.
Hot Garbage
Boomerang sucks -- its another reworking of No,No No which is reworked from earlier KISS
and Prisoner of Love
At least the 2 on here didn't take 3 writers for such mediocrity.
Bruce is not a songwriter at all.
Since LIU is over 2M in the US how could those have outsold it?
Yes, Animalize rode LIU"s coattales and also did 2M
But how bad did sales plunge after Animalize (because it was mediocre)
Crazy Nights was a huge flop. They almost called off the tour the album did so bad. Gene and Paul trashed their label over how bad it did. The tour hemorrhaged red ink.
CN was such a failure that's why HITS is basically demos.
And Hot In The Shade flopped so bad the label couldn't understand it. That's why they hired a marketing firm to do surveys on the HITS tour to try and find out why nobody was buying KISS records.
Bruce was an utter disaster for KISS.
Also, you are comparing KISS album sales when MTV was in 12-15M homes COTN vs 70M or so when HITS came out.
Kiss was in over 4X's the number of homes for CN and HITS but they couldn't sell dick because they put out such garbage.
And if Bruce had been so good, there would have been no need for them to call in Vinnie to save them again. But the survey results spoke loud and clear. And Kiss fans were sick of the crap that the band was putting out.
$9000 to split. That would be $4500 Vinnie didn't get. Pretty sad that Bruce's integrity is worth so little.
But Bruce also just sit there and took it from Gene and Paul. Cut his salary for a year. No problem. Bruce and his wife couldn't even afford a 2nd Honda. Big rockstar lifestyle. And he sat there why they treated Eric like shit and didn't stand up for him at all.
But he sure could say "Guitars From Hell" plenty of times in 1992. He could do that.
Once again, Bruce was 1 of 3. He certainly wasn't leading the songwriting ship at all. He was along for the ride.
Then when it came time for Crazy Flop
I'll Fight Hell - 1 of 3
The horrific No X3 - 1 of 3
Hell or High Water It finally didn't take 3 people
The absolutely gosh awful WYWCD - again -it took 3 people to write that garbage.
Hot Garbage
Boomerang sucks -- its another reworking of No,No No which is reworked from earlier KISS
and Prisoner of Love
At least the 2 on here didn't take 3 writers for such mediocrity.
Bruce is not a songwriter at all.
Since LIU is over 2M in the US how could those have outsold it?
Yes, Animalize rode LIU"s coattales and also did 2M
But how bad did sales plunge after Animalize (because it was mediocre)
Crazy Nights was a huge flop. They almost called off the tour the album did so bad. Gene and Paul trashed their label over how bad it did. The tour hemorrhaged red ink.
CN was such a failure that's why HITS is basically demos.
And Hot In The Shade flopped so bad the label couldn't understand it. That's why they hired a marketing firm to do surveys on the HITS tour to try and find out why nobody was buying KISS records.
Bruce was an utter disaster for KISS.
Also, you are comparing KISS album sales when MTV was in 12-15M homes COTN vs 70M or so when HITS came out.
Kiss was in over 4X's the number of homes for CN and HITS but they couldn't sell dick because they put out such garbage.
And if Bruce had been so good, there would have been no need for them to call in Vinnie to save them again. But the survey results spoke loud and clear. And Kiss fans were sick of the crap that the band was putting out.
$9000 to split. That would be $4500 Vinnie didn't get. Pretty sad that Bruce's integrity is worth so little.
But Bruce also just sit there and took it from Gene and Paul. Cut his salary for a year. No problem. Bruce and his wife couldn't even afford a 2nd Honda. Big rockstar lifestyle. And he sat there why they treated Eric like shit and didn't stand up for him at all.
But he sure could say "Guitars From Hell" plenty of times in 1992. He could do that.
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VVArchives
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
So out of all those Bruce songs you mentioned during his time in the band. Up to 1995.
How many were concert staples?
How many were music videos?
How many released as singles?
Bruce couldn't deliver the good at all. He was someone who had no stage presence and someone who wouldn't rock Gene or Paul's egos.
Once again, Kiss would have been better off with a new guitar player every year than Bruce. The guy was just "there"
Remind everyone what Bruce's favorite album was? I'll give ya a hint it starts with "R"
The album he has 1 filler song on. The album he was replaced by Dick Wagner because he couldn't nail the solo. The album he wanted Gene and Paul to lie about who played on ETILAU. That album. Also the album Desmond Child was booted by Gene on. And the album, Gene had to call Vinnie to help them out again. Gotta love those survey results speaking volumes.
And thankfully, Revenge outsold HITS in the US and especially WW. Even though it hardly got any video play etc because of grunge. Forever got played constantly on MTV, yet nobody bought it.
How many were concert staples?
How many were music videos?
How many released as singles?
Bruce couldn't deliver the good at all. He was someone who had no stage presence and someone who wouldn't rock Gene or Paul's egos.
Once again, Kiss would have been better off with a new guitar player every year than Bruce. The guy was just "there"
Remind everyone what Bruce's favorite album was? I'll give ya a hint it starts with "R"
The album he has 1 filler song on. The album he was replaced by Dick Wagner because he couldn't nail the solo. The album he wanted Gene and Paul to lie about who played on ETILAU. That album. Also the album Desmond Child was booted by Gene on. And the album, Gene had to call Vinnie to help them out again. Gotta love those survey results speaking volumes.
And thankfully, Revenge outsold HITS in the US and especially WW. Even though it hardly got any video play etc because of grunge. Forever got played constantly on MTV, yet nobody bought it.
Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
I would wager that Bruce's favourite album would be Carnival Of Souls, which met an untimely fate of course, and wasn't true to the KISS vibe, but like Ace in the Dynaysty Unmasked era, he wasn't going to complain too much at having more songs on the album, regardless of the direction.
Things went too far for Ace with the The Elder project, and COS got canned for the much more $$$ inducing reunion tour.
Things went too far for Ace with the The Elder project, and COS got canned for the much more $$$ inducing reunion tour.
Commander in chief - VVF Army
Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
It's more fun listening to Warrior than thinking about all this nonsense. Alas, the fun is short.
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VVArchives
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Re: Gene's lie about Vinnie - fast playing
Genebaby wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:56 pm I would wager that Bruce's favourite album would be Carnival Of Souls, which met an untimely fate of course, and wasn't true to the KISS vibe, but like Ace in the Dynaysty Unmasked era, he wasn't going to complain too much at having more songs on the album, regardless of the direction.
Things went too far for Ace with the The Elder project, and COS got canned for the much more $$$ inducing reunion tour.
Bruce is on record with Revenge being his favorite, so you'd lose that bet.
He also laughably said ... if you don't like COS don't blame me (Paraprhasing)
Its funny how people act like Ace was so upset Kiss had moved on from rock when you listen all all those poppy songs of his ...heavy on keyboards that he was doing.
And according to Larry Mazer (who was one of the people who they thought about hiring back for the reunion), the record label gave KISS a choice. Either put back on the makeup and do a reunion or you are over.
KISS knew the reunion was going to happen long before COS was finished. Some believe they just kept working on it for leverage against Ace and Peter. It sure seemed like Paul didn't care at all about that album (even while recording it).
But yes, I'm sure Bruce would have loved to have had the money from COS (songwriting) even though he wasn't getting any publishing. I remember an interview with him about "Psycho Circus" and he was so upset about the lawsuit and how long it took him to get any money off that for his 1 credit. He really must have needed the $$$ horribly. Still can't believe he saw a dime of it. Alice should have gotten all of it.