The Jackson players of the 80's

[Genebaby]

A new pic from the classic Jackson ad photoshoot from Grover.

A cool outtake with Grover and the boys!!

[pullitt]

Nice! Looks like it'd been quite the shoving match.

[Genebaby]

Yes, and all those pointy headstocks!!!

[VVDimebagVV]

I was going to make a joke about how nice it was for David Lee Roth to let Steve Vai borrow a pair of pants for the photo shoot. Then I found this photo.

[Genebaby]

Is there a bit of green in Dave's pants? Hard to know.

[shramiac]

Stripes go downwards on outside of the legs on Dave's pants and upwards on Steve's.

Steve's pants make him look "excited"!!!!!! No LIU opening song puns you animals!

[VVArchives]

Nice! Looks like it'd been quite the shoving match.

At least for the real publicity pic, Vinnie was front and center where he belonged. Easily the best out of all that group.

[Madmark]

Lol dude your a laugh you can be a fan and still live in reality

[VVArchives]

Lol dude your a laugh you can be a fan and still live in reality

Which one was better than Vinnie back then? Any of them save KISS other than Vinnie? Nope

Any of them come up with 3 incredible solo albums like he did? Invasion, ASG and Guitarmageddon?

Any of them write lets say 35 tracks off their first 3 solo albums and 95% of the songs, they wrote themselves.

[Madmark]

Ok vinnie Co wrote some good songs vinnie was a good rock guitarist and also a good vocalist his invasion stuff although not well received (yes I am old enought to remember and was at rocknroll heaven in Toronto to see them) was good
Jake e lee was and is a great guitarist who co wrote a couple of hits he is considered a great player and at the time of that photo was considered very very good
Steve Vai has co writes on popular dlr songs and is a bonified guitar hero the Jackson add was geared toward guitarists at the time and vinnie was equal to some in the promo shot no doubt remember as I said I was a fan at the time
But let's be honest he was never a evh randy rhoads hendrix Clapton or gary Moore level musician by the guitar playing community or his peers
And please don't quote the maiden gig where he was playing jeff beck stuff note for note as I said he was a good rock guitarist and his playing isn't in question at all
This is in reference to the 80's Charvel Jackson promo add

[VVArchives]

Ok vinnie Co wrote some good songs vinnie was a good rock guitarist and also a good vocalist his invasion stuff although not well received (yes I am old enought to remember and was at rocknroll heaven in Toronto to see them) was good
Jake e lee was and is a great guitarist who co wrote a couple of hits he is considered a great player and at the time of that photo was considered very very good
Steve Vai has co writes on popular dlr songs and is a bonified guitar hero the Jackson add was geared toward guitarists at the time and vinnie was equal to some in the promo shot no doubt remember as I said I was a fan at the time
But let's be honest he was never a evh randy rhoads hendrix Clapton or gary Moore level musician by the guitar playing community or his peers
And please don't quote the maiden gig where he was playing jeff beck stuff note for note as I said he was a good rock guitarist and his playing isn't in question at all
This is in reference to the 80's Charvel Jackson promo add

You don't love that Iron Maiden quote? I sure do. And those are his peers.


I saw Gary Moore one time. Going on after Faster Pussycat.... before Ace and Y&T. Wasn't very impressed at all



I think those 3 VVI albums blow that away.


Vai-- so he had to co-write for any decent songs? Eat Em & Smile had some good songs. Skyscraper sucked

Vai ruined "Slip of The Tongue"



I'll take Vinnie. A guy who was basically an unknown who "took over" KISS and shaped it his way. And then he made the decision to leave them (go AWOL) and go out on his own. And he put out the most guitars in your face album of all time. And then when KISS had sunk so far, he even went back and got them to finally put out another decent album.


If Paul's ego had not gotten in the way of things and Gene and Paul being cheapskates, KISS could have been one of the biggest rock acts in the 80's again. All they needed was one more great album. Vinnie's "Animal"ize could have taken KISS to 3-4-5M But instead they put out a mediocre album and their fortunes began declining yet again.

[Genebaby]

Steve Vai is a bona fide guitar legend and maestro. In the world of rock guitar he is right up there. Everyone gives full respect and props to Vai.

Sadly, as many on here know, the people you argue with all the time included, Vinnie could have been just as much a legend, if not more. If Vinnie was a level headed person and on the business side of music he had the potential to eclipse EVERYONE. That's not in question.

Sadly though, we know he didn't get there. He couldn't keep his job in KISS, he could't keep his band together, he couldn't release the next album (Euphoria doesn't count for much) and now he can't function and play in a real band setting, so it's just as sadly over.

We can admit this, as painful as it is, considering the potential of what could have been.

[Slayer]

Steve Vai is a bona fide guitar legend and maestro. In the world of rock guitar he is right up there. Everyone gives full respect and props to Vai.

Sadly, as many on here know, the people you argue with all the time included, Vinnie could have been just as much a legend, if not more. If Vinnie was a level headed person and on the business side of music he had the potential to eclipse EVERYONE. That's not in question.

Sadly though, we know he didn't get there. He couldn't keep his job in KISS, he could't keep his band together, he couldn't release the next album (Euphoria doesn't count for much) and now he can't function and play in a real band setting, so it's just as sadly over.

We can admit this, as painful as it is, considering the potential of what could have been.

This is 100% spot on! Vinnie was an artist who had everything. He was a good singer, a great songwriter and great guitarist who never realized his potential sadly. He could have been universally famous rather than just being primarily known by Kiss Fans and guitar fans

[Madmark]

I agree in the sence that vinnie unfortunately was a waste of talent after his 2 invasion releases
He could for sure have been a greater force in the guitar world.
He was a on his way to being a musician that could have been remembered with the greats but for some unknown reason chose to fall into obscurity, in some ways i can understand and relate if he felt hurt and betrayed by the slaughter guys but i wish instead it would have lit a fire under his butt to prove all wrong
As too the poster who was unimpressed with Gary Moore well he seems to be unimpressed with everyone who isnt vinnie lol so anything i say would not make any difference unfortunaly
I myself am impressed by more guitarists than i am not and enjoy many different styles

[VVArchives]

He couldn't keep his job in KISS, he could't keep his band together, he couldn't release the next album (Euphoria doesn't count for much) and now he can't function and play in a real band setting, so it's just as sadly over.

We can admit this, as painful as it is, considering the potential of what could have been.

But most of it is utter BS

He could have easily kept his job in KISS. It was he who refused to sign a shitty contract. He went AWOL. Even then, Gene was calling him every day while Vinnie was in the studio. Of course, it helps that even Hirsh Gardner has backed that up and confirmed.


He had a crappy singer forced on him because his manager lied to the record label and said Robert was signed when he wasn't.

Then, all the changes at the record label and them delaying ASG for all those months helped things fall apart. Also lost "Ashes" as the lead off single/video beating Kingdom Come. And the new label head got the crook Strum to go behind Vinnie's back with his toadie Mark Slaughter beside him to cut out solos.


He could have easily released the next album. It could have turned those masters over. Thank goodness he didn't.

He recorded it, it was done. But he wasn't going to let it be released from a company that was going under. And Robert's claims are just stupid.

Oh no, they wouldn't release it because Vinnie was shopping it to other labels as they were going under. Oh no. Of course Robert fails to mention, if any other label bought it (and several were interested), they would have to pay Enigma for it. And no label in their right mind would right a 6 figure check for an album of heavy metal greatness in 1992. Especially since that 6 figures could be $300K+ back tnen. No way, they would make their money back off it.

It didn't take Slaughter any time to get the boot after the WILD LIFE failed so bad.


The only ironic part is how Revenge ended up out selling Hot In The Shade when it came out at such a horrible time. But without Vinnie, Revenge never would have happened. It would have been another crappy KISS album that didn't go anywhere.

[Madmark]

Genebaby is a pretty accurate account of what happened
It is very unfortunate for those who were fans and very unfortunate for vinnie himself for whatever reason it is and it would all be speculation as to what his issue is, he most certainly has an issue.
While he was indeed a great player songwriter and from what i have heard a very good singer one thing he wasn't and that was kiss saviour
I was old enough to go through the vinnie era kiss and it was taking off the makeup that gave them a small boost not the lick it up lp
I am not saying his contribution to kiss wasn't great but nothing saved them not him or them they were clinging on to a sinking ship at the time trying to jump from whatever was popular at the moment to remain relevant and they may very well have been his mental breaking point because of the lack of what he thought he was entitled too from his contribution but again that is speculation on my part
As for revenge it was another release that really did nothing for kiss and anything about it and vinnie is a moot point
They had what one more failed semi release after revenge before they deligated themselves to being a nostalgia act and have been ever since its pretty obvious kiss wants nothing to do with the non makeup era that should let us know in a way what its worth is to them

[Genebaby]

Madmark, you do get it. Like you, I wish any setbacks in Vinnie's life would have lit a fire under his butt, because as we know living well is the best revenge, and in that way Gene and Paul got the best revenge, big time. I saw Vinnie's house, I'm glad I didn't live there.

Revenge sold better than HITS (maybe, I am taking your word for it, don't really care) but I have been telling my son about KISSTORY and explained how much they pinned their hopes on Crazy Nights being huge, it and the tour wasn't.

Then they did HITS, which was done on the cheap and is almost demos, which at the time was sold as being raw and cool. That tour almost didn't happen until Forever was an actual, real hit song, and helped with the opening bands, Slaughter included.

Revenge was more of the same, big words to the press, small tour in reality, but still a cool tour. Then less and less going on until they did the reunion and never looked back.

KISS in the 80's and 90's may not have been a great success, especially compared to the 70's, but they were OUT THERE, they were DOING STUFF, RELEASING STUFF. Vinnie did just about sweet nothing.

With Guitarmageddon in the bag he somehow only releases four demos with a drum machine? No tours, no shows and still no shows. Nothing he as done so far is a show, it's got to be out there in public, or let people film at the "private parties" and we can all finally see the majesty of Vinnie playing like he said he would at CF, but didn't.

[VVArchives]

While he was indeed a great player songwriter and from what i have heard a very good singer one thing he wasn't and that was kiss saviour
I was old enough to go through the vinnie era kiss and it was taking off the makeup that gave them a small boost not the lick it up lp
I am not saying his contribution to kiss wasn't great but nothing saved them not him or them they were clinging on to a sinking ship at the time trying to jump from whatever was popular at the moment to remain relevant and they may very well have been his mental breaking point because of the lack of what he thought he was entitled too from his contribution but again that is speculation on my part

As for revenge it was another release that really did nothing for kiss and anything about it and vinnie is a moot point
They had what one more failed semi release after revenge before they deligated themselves to being a nostalgia act and have been ever since its pretty obvious kiss wants nothing to do with the non makeup era that should let us know in a way what its worth is to them

That's not accurate at all. He was certainly KISS' savior.

Kiss was in the grave when Vinnie came along. They couldn't tour. Their last album had sold 150,000 copies in the US.

Before that KISS couldn't even fill a 3,000 seater in NYC for a 2nd night. They (label etc) lost a ton of money on trying to tour Europe. Barely broke even in Austrlia (and promoters there took a bath).

And prior to that KISS had lost millions in the US touring supporting Dynasty.

All that just goes to show the entire fan base was utterly destroyed. Had KISS come back and released a pile of shit like the 4 tracks on "KIllers" they would have been dead. They would have been shown the door by the record label when they had voided their contract.

I Love It Loud being one of the biggest anthem's in KISStory. They were actually able to tour to support that album. It was on the charts longer than Unmasked in the US. Sold tremendously better than "The Elder". And as Paul himself has stated, it brought in a whole new fan base. As he told Kerrang, 60% of the fans on that tour were new fans. Nobody knows exactly what the US tour averaged because only a handful of official boxscores. But KISS was able to come back and prove themselves. Whether it was 5,000 a night more or less. That was far better than KISS had been doing from 1980-1982. And breaking even on that tour was far better than losing the millions they lost in 1979. Not to mention the huge success in Brazil. Where they sold over 250,000 copies of "Creatures". And let KISS go out on top with the makeup and at their biggest show ever.

I really don't get the "taking the makeup" saved them. I don't think I've ever heard so ridiculous.
First off, nobody cared that they took off their makeup. MTV didn't give a damn. And not that many people even had MTv in 1983.
Throwing the Unmasking on at 11pm ET as a favor to someone with no promotion at all, isn't some big deal. They might have been lucky if 75,000 to 100,000 were tuned in to MTV at that time.

Had KISS released a shit album like those 4 killer tracks and Unmasked, the public would not have bought shit. The reaction would have been--we told you they were all gimmick and no substance. They would have been roasted and destroyed. What saved them was following up a great album like COTN with an even better album Lick It Up. It was the music on that album that saved KISS. And a lead off single that still endures today as one of the most played in the catalogue. In fact, if you look at their setlists and what's been played--guess which 2 songs are in the top 10 that no other song after 1977? That's right I Love It Loud & Lick It Up. Do you think some shit song like "Partners In Crime" would be in the Top 10? Do you think a crap some like "I'm A Legend Tonight" would be in there? HELL NO! Of course not only do the suck, but KISS would have been over.


Also, you are very simplistic to write off Revenge like that. Here's an album that came out in Grunge when KISS was basically dead again and it is close to platinum. When KISS had released so much marginal product during that time Animalize-Hits, you don't come back all at once. People aren't wasting their money because they've been burned too much in the past with mediocrity.

Of course, KISS couldn't follow up Revenge. They had a falling out with Vinnie over how they treated Eric Carr. That's why KISS didn't do shit for several years and then put out the worst album of their career. You want to dismiss an album that sold more - especially WW that came out at the worst possible time. Compared to an album that completely bombed with tremendous video and radio airplay.

[Madmark]

Interesting and a very revisionistic take on it.
You see things as you do and again i am not slighting your take on things, just giving a perspective on the situation as someone who actually watched the kiss saga unfold in realtime.

[Madmark]

Yes genebaby all you said is pretty much spot on to how i see it and feel about it

[VVArchives]

Revenge sold better than HITS (maybe, I am taking your word for it, don't really care) but I have been telling my son about KISSTORY and explained how much they pinned their hopes on Crazy Nights being huge, it and the tour wasn't.

Then they did HITS, which was done on the cheap and is almost demos, which at the time was sold as being raw and cool. That tour almost didn't happen until Forever was an actual, real hit song, and helped with the opening bands, Slaughter included.

Revenge was more of the same, big words to the press, small tour in reality, but still a cool tour. Then less and less going on until they did the reunion and never looked back.

You are buying the Larry spin. The tour was happening. It got pushed back. Tickets were on sale for that tour long before "Forever" became a huge hit. Its funny, how people let Larry say stuff like that and don't bring up the facts to him. Without Slaughter and Winger on that bill, that tour probably would have never of happened or gotten cancelled after the 1st leg. What did Forever do for the band? It did nothing outside the US. It didn't help move any albums of Hot In The Shade was was a sales disaster. Sales were so bad that touring a portion of the HITS tour, Polygram commissed a marketing company to do a survey of why KISS fans weren't buying their albums. Those survey results are one of the reasons, Gene called Vinnie. Which is funny since that one guy above tried to dismiss Vinnie and Revenge.

As Dana Strum rightfully pointed out in Kerrang, Slaughter was bringing in a big chunk of those fans on that tour. And they were selling merchandise like crazy. Almost as much as KISS. That tour was vastly different than others because that tour featured a ton of young females. KISS tour prior to that had been mostly male. And those young females were there to see Slaughter and Winger to an extent.

And prior to that opening kickoff in Lubbock, TX, Slaughter had already moved around 800K. It took KISS until mid 1992 to move 680K. And Slaughter was a group MTV wasn't even interested in. And yet, thanks to VVI fans they took them to 800K in 4 months time. And they got MTV to put the video in rotation finally, after a full month of just being on Dial-MTV and the Ball.

Being played on the ball didn't mean you were in rotation. If you are in rotation, you were being played multiple times per day every day.

And thankfully, Chrysalis acknowledged how important VVI was towards breaking Slaughter. Not to mention, it certainly helped Mark and Dana had been featured in hundreds of magazines up to that point.


Crazy Nights, yes they took a huge gamble on that and it failed and the tour was a disaster. But they only made that gamble after Asylum was such a miserable failure. That's what happened when it followed an album that had one or two strong songs and people rushed out buying Animalize thinking it would be as good as COTN and LIU and people got burned. Yes, they did have some success in the UK with the single but pretty much everywhere else... And Paul was terribly disappointed his blatent rip off of Foreigners song didn't do anything,

Vinnie saved KISS but then KISS couldn't do much when he handed them the keys back to the kingdom. And when you listen to Animalize you know why Gene was so desperate to get Vinnie back calling everyday. That album sold on the momentum of the past 2 and then it burned fans again.

[VVArchives]

Interesting and a very revisionistic take on it.

No revision at all. Reality backed up with facts. And that's why Vinnie was hailed as the Savior of KISS back then. And Vinnie getting so much positive press for Lick It Up made Paul very jealous of Vinnie.

[VVArchives]

Yes genebaby all you said is pretty much spot on to how i see it and feel about it

Funny there are Aussie people who thought Australia 1980 was some huge success. Thankfully we know the facts on what a huge money loser that was. Always helps to know the real facts instead of poor perceptions

[Madmark]

I would hardly call my perceptions poor as i stated and you seem to missread i was alive and watched first hand how kiss were perceived and what they put out first hand lol
The facts you keep putting out are very revisionist as i said it is not a slight to what you have read and what your perception is
As you seem to be very angry about the people at the kissfaq for being haters
The people here all seem to remember vinnie for his successes and show dissapointment for his faults i read no hate here just hurt and sorrow and you appear to relish in this and for what? Are you the ultimate troll?
Again i am not trying to be argumentative just letting you know that everyone is entitled to there own opinion and like assholes everyone has one and they all do stink lol

[VVArchives]

I would hardly call my perceptions poor as i stated and you seem to missread i was alive and watched first hand how kiss were perceived and what they put out first hand lol
The facts you keep putting out are very revisionist as i said it is not a slight to what you have read and what your perception is
As you seem to be very angry about the people at the kissfaq for being haters
The people here all seem to remember vinnie for his successes and show dissapointment for his faults i read no hate here just hurt and sorrow and you appear to relish in this and for what? Are you the ultimate troll?
Again i am not trying to be argumentative just letting you know that everyone is entitled to there own opinion and like assholes everyone has one and they all do stink lol

Yes, opinions stink. Facts matter.

[Genebaby]

Upon its release it was the removal of the makeup that gave the band the most traction. It didn't hurt that the album was also fantastic, but KISS learnt with Creatures that people listen with their eyes.

As I've had to say before, the direction of Creatures was set by Gene and Paul as a direct retaliation to The Elder. They were writing with Bryan Adams as well, maybe he saved KISS?

Many guitarists and writers contributed to KISS' vision on that album.

KISS' whole problem in the 80s was that they were tagged as a passe 70s band.

They were branded uncool by many, like ABBA and The Bee Gees. So no matter how good their product was it was not gonna sell like Bon Jovi, or Leppard or Whitesnake etc.

They had their faithful fans but it was an uphill battle against the other bands.

One thing I remember from the late 80s was the plethora of KISS special magazines. They got all these magazines released, that I was buying but they were otherwise not popular, so it didn't seem they deserved all this special attention. I didn't mind, I bought all the mags and still have them.

[Madmark]

Genebaby that is exactly as i remember it
Its interesting that people can remember things and discuss agree or agree to disagree and yet remain friendly by the common bond of love or passion of something like a musician or band yet there is always someone who has the same feelings yet has to make everything into a shouting match

[Madmark]

As for facts matter i would suggest triple check yours
I have no desire to enter the sandbox with you your childish antics are very well known

[VVArchives]

Upon its release it was the removal of the makeup that gave the band the most traction. It didn't hurt that the album was also fantastic, but KISS learnt with Creatures that people listen with their eyes.

As I've had to say before, the direction of Creatures was set by Gene and Paul as a direct retaliation to The Elder. They were writing with Bryan Adams as well, maybe he saved KISS?

Many guitarists and writers contributed to KISS' vision on that album.

Again, total revisionist history from someone I doubt was in America. Also, Paul says that BS "listen with their ears" because he's upset the Vinnie "solo" album as some called it did so much better. But it is funny Paul even admits that it sold over 2M in the US.

And you can falsely claim the direction was Gene and Paul but that's a lie. As Bob Kulick pointed out very well. Gene and Paul had no idea what direction they wanted to go. They were looking for Bob to show them even.

And thats why we got such shit songs on KILLERS as what we did.

Guess who they wrote with on those shitty KILLERS songs? All those same people on COTN, except one difference. Who would that be?

And they recorded 6 of Vinnie's songs for COTN. And they should have used Not For The Innocent, Betrayed and Back On The Streets. Vinnie has said they wrote countless others that weren't used.


But here's Vinnie writing 10 or more songs with them for COTN. 6 songs recorded. 3 used. But you want to claim it was other guitarists etc setting the direction? What a leap! You are in fantasy land!


You want to ignore Paul pointing out that 60% of the crowd on the COTN tour was new fans. They built up an almost entirely new fan base.


240,000 copies its first week is because they didn't have makeup. SURE!! 1M in less than a year in the US because they didn't have on makeup! Sure!



Of course again by your logic, KISS could have unmasked with The Elder or with the Killers tracks and they would have sold tremendously because the makeup was off and they got attention. The only attention they would have gotten is -- Your Music Sucks! You're a Damn GImmick Band