Ace asked back during lick it up tour.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:30 am

I just read that Ace said Kiss asked him back during the liu euro tour. he declined.

I also want to get the story totally confirmed when Vinnie got the Kiss gig?

The story I heard from Vinnie and Gene interviews was that Vinnie was in the bath. I heard it was not too long before they had to rehearse for the tour but after the COTN album came out (which the producer said Ace did do a little work in the studio on).

Anyone else know the exact start date for Vinnie. I assume it was after the euro promo tour with Ace but how long after?

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:51 am

My guess is the bath story is just that, a story that sounds cool for the media.

Vinnie was probably prepped and ready during that Euro promo tour. They only took Ace to cover up him about to leave from the record company and the fans.

Where did you get the info Ace was asked back? By the time the tour was on he would be no good as he couldn't play the new songs, save Lick It Up which even I can play.

Ace has stated if they had Salem him to stay on the way back from the promo tour he probably would have but Paul and Gene said nothing.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:01 am

i read an interview. let me find it.
It could have been that kiss asked a lot of people. I would have loved to see Ace come back. I think maybe in like a part time position. A few solos and tracks per album. I think some of the stuff after VV left would have benefited from the old sound a little more.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:26 am

Gene apparently called Ace and basically pleaded for him to return to kiss... We all know how it panned out in the end... I don't think Ace would ever rejoin kiss now even... He may do a "Final" show with them when the band does finally call it quits...

Did anyone ever read about Gene negotiating a final farewell show at Shea Stadium,NY in the early 2000's? Billy Joel ended up seeing off Shea finally but it was always a dream of Genes to perform at that Stadium as the Beatles once did...

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:01 am

i remember the shea stadium final show idea. I lived pretty close to it at the time. But I don't like the Mets too much. I like the era of that stadium though.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:04 am

Shea Stadium is legendary, but yeah it's all about the Yankees!

actually Now that I think of it Billy Joel played Yankee Stadium & Shea Stadium

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:26 am

i am not a yankees guy either, i do like the yankees 'no goatee' policy. Red Sox are my least favourite team. lol

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:29 am

I've always liked LA Dodgers because if the tie in with Brooklyn Dodgers...

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:33 am

I love looking at pictures of the old Brooklyn Dodgers and Ebbetts Field. I did like Shea. It was a bad football and baseball stadium but I love the worlds fair architecture.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:35 am

i am going to sleep . going way off topic.

I could look at these kodachromes all day. Shea in the back

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:45 am

That is so awesome! Thanks for posting

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:19 pm

Now yall got me thinkin... it would've been cool to hear the Vinnie-penned tunes on Lick It Up with Ace's bluesy-classic KISS leads if Vinnie never joined and was just a hired writer (can't believe I just said that about my fave non-makeup album).

I honestly think Ace would've fit in perfectly in the 80's if he hadn't succumbed to drugs and alcohol. The only reason KISS wanted to go in the "shredder" guitarist direction in the 80's is because they could (Van Halen was of course huge at the time and in the C.K. Lendt book he claims Paul was jealous of VH's success).

But IMO the Ace/Eric Carr line-up would've been perfect... maybe "Thrills In The Night" would've had a more Frehley's Comet "Into The Night" vibe with Ace on lead... or Rock Soldiers could've been on Crazy Nights?

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:28 pm

I think it would have been poo!!!

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:32 pm

vinnie the poo!

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:54 pm

For me, personally I was happy Ace was out & this new guy....Vinnie Vincent was in. I know we have spoken about it b4, how VV didn't come from a Metal background. But that doesn't change the fact that once VV was involved KISS became a Heavy Metal band & IMO, VV had a lot to do with that. I think VV was a visionary in that aspect. He may not invented shredding, but he was able to see the future & made KISS a force to be reckoned with amongst the New Wave of Metal that was emerging. VV gave KISS what they had lost, the aggression & passion. Once he was gone, KISS became limp, flaccid even. VV was like VIAGRA® for KISS. (VV you can use that for a T-shirt if you like ). KISS had never been that aggressive b4 VV. And VV on stage, he was a show stopper on his own. For all the bad stuff that has happen & that he has done, one thing is for sure. He was a great player & and an influence not only on KISS, but on many player that would come after him.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:46 pm

I felt similar. I always thought that Kiss was such a great band but by the early 80's Ace was no longer a competitive sounding lead guitar player any longer. He sounded amateurish next to Ed Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, Brad Gillis, Jeff Watson, George Lynch and Warren DiMartini among other guitar players building names for themselves at the time. Vinnie could shred with the best of any one and it 's true that he invigorated those tired old songs. Look no further than Dr. Love recorded at Rio. The tempo was nearly twice as fast and the solo to this song was now ferocious rather than the pedestrian licks that Frehley played.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:07 pm

Don't get me wrong, my fave KISS lineup was Creatures/LIU and Ace leaving WAS the best thing for KISS and Ace. Just saying that if Ace could've kept the partying in check I don't think KISS would've suffered in the 80's with him (look at Motley Crue, Mick Mars was by no means a shredder but it didn't hurt them).

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:13 pm

Slayer wrote:...Look no further than Dr. Love recorded at Rio. The tempo was nearly twice as fast and the solo to this song was now ferocious rather than the pedestrian...

Kevin, you hit the nail square on the head. The reason I say that is because my 3 yo daughter feel in love with that Rio version. Yer she likes the old version, but when she saw & heard that Rio 83 version with Vinnie, she went psycho. Pulling the face & playing her air guitar. She never did that with the Ace renditions. Also she was fascinated with the Rhoads Jacksons. In her mind it's not Randy Rhoads that first showed the world to the V, it's Vinnie. At the Crashdïet instore at Allen Music, she walk around and See Rhoads guitar & say, that's like Vinnie's. My friend Paul, the Manager of the guitar section was laughing his head off at her calling the Rhoads, Vinnie's guitars. And in a lot of ways I was the same when I was younger. I really didn't have anyone to expose me to Metal. So I wasn't aware of RR or EVH. I found Metal on my own by following KISS, even when they weren't popular. And at the time of COTN, seeing Bootleg photos of VV a cool little shop in Centre Point shopping centre in the city. I saw pictures of VV with the Red Rhoads. And to me, he may as well have invented it cause I didn't know any better. That guiar & the image of VV playing was so strong that it took me 25 year to get one similar to his, but I eventually got one.
Once again for all his psychotic behaviour, he was a Legend. And maybe, just like the saying, Vinnie is 'The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long'

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:06 pm

I don't know Aersosmith were one of the biggest bands of the 70s and 80s. VV was good but the years after having a more 70s lead sound may have worked or may have not. Rock Soldiers to be honest had a more commercial sounding solo to me than the stuff Bruce was doing (good or not). I dont know really, just saying it may have been interesting.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:53 am

metatron wrote:For me, personally I was happy Ace was out & this new guy....Vinnie Vincent was in. I know we have spoken about it b4, how VV didn't come from a Metal background. But that doesn't change the fact that once VV was involved KISS became a Heavy Metal band & IMO, VV had a lot to do with that. I think VV was a visionary in that aspect. He may not invented shredding, but he was able to see the future & made KISS a force to be reckoned with amongst the New Wave of Metal that was emerging. VV gave KISS what they had lost, the aggression & passion. Once he was gone, KISS became limp, flaccid even. VV was like VIAGRA® for KISS. (VV you can use that for a T-shirt if you like ). KISS had never been that aggressive b4 VV. And VV on stage, he was a show stopper on his own. For all the bad stuff that has happen & that he has done, one thing is for sure. He was a great player & and an influence not only on KISS, but on many player that would come after him.

AGREED 100%

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:56 am

i agree. but i would have liked to see Ace step in in 84 and see what happened. I dont think it would have been as bad as it seems. I think Kiss would have been more successful with someone like Ace than Bruce. Just my idea. If Ace wrote Rock Soldiers , Insane, Shot full of rock, trouble walkin as kiss tunes i think it would have worked.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:00 am

To bring up a similar thing that couldn't happen.

How cool would it be to hear a Bon Scott impersonator sing the Back In Black album???
There are a few songs on Youtube but I would like to hear it done PROPERLY.

Yes, It would be cool to hear Ace's meanderings on the 1980's Kiss songs. Just like it would be AWESOME to hear Vinnie play on ALL of the albums after LIU.
WISH IN ONE HAND...

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:03 am

yeah. i am not saying i wished it to happen. i am saying i don't think it would have ruined kiss and more than likely bruce would have been playing most solos without credit anyway.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:04 am

you can see how bad it was getting if kiss were asking the drunken ace to come back. that was a better option than keeping vinnie. lol

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:06 am

ace still was a partner in kiss at the time. i still think ace most likely made more from liu than vinnie did or about the same. i think peter had sold up but not ace. another reason why kiss were not paying out a lot of money as well as the fact that creatures tour was such a low attendance. you can not really blame them for offering vv very little. they were rock bottom until the liu tour got going.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:03 am

I remember reading that Peter didn't give up his shares until 1985... so he made some dough off the Elder, Killers, Creatures, LIU, Animalize, Animalize Live Uncensored and maybe Asylum. Hmmm, don't think I would've given that easy money up... wonder if Peter and Ace had their gold and platinum Lick It Up or Animalize records displayed?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:38 am

i bet kiss paid them some good money to get them out.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:58 am

doublev2 wrote:i agree. but i would have liked to see Ace step in in 84 and see what happened. I dont think it would have been as bad as it seems. I think Kiss would have been more successful with someone like Ace than Bruce. Just my idea. If Ace wrote Rock Soldiers , Insane, Shot full of rock, trouble walkin as kiss tunes i think it would have worked.

I'm going to share a little post with you for comparison and food for thought. Much credit to Jimmy Page for the great songs that he has written over the last 50 years. He is an amazing songwriter and rhythm guitarist. His catalog in the Yardbirds, Led Zeppelin, The Firm and Coverdale / Page speak for themselves in regards to lasting relevance and quality. On the attached link I share with you all a version of "In The Still Of The Night". Most of us would agree that this song at its best is a great guitar song if not a guitar anthem. I enjoy this Page Version for what it is but what it shows is what a great modern and technical songwriter and guitarist John Sykes is and what an amazingly technical tribute player Doug Aldrich is. Jimmy Page basically takes a long compulsive puff on that cigarette and lets the keyboard player take a stab at an adaptation of that epic John Sykes Guitar Solo. Jimmy rightful knows that he wouldn't even be in the same zip code of playing an adaptation of the John Sykes Solo that would satisfy the audience and I give him tons of credit for acknowledging that fact.
[youtube][/youtube]

The second post is the amazing Doug Aldrich whose technique sets this great song on fire. I'm a huge Sykes Fan but the truth is that John himself never played this song any better than this version.

[youtube][/youtube]

Now back to the topic of Ace. In the reunion tours as I recall Kiss played a couple of their simpler 80's hits like Lick it Up and Heavens on Fire. Ace to the best of my knowledge didn't play a solo in these songs but I think that Gene and Paul knew better rather than Ace knew better. Case in point look at what he did for a solo in The Oath Live on Friday's. This song didn't really have a solo originally but what was there was played by Paul Stanley on The Elder. Ace was out of key and out of his realm.

To summarize Ace Frehley playing solos to songs originally played by Vinnie Vincent, Mark St. John, Bob Kulick or Bruce Kulick would have been a musical disaster as his technique is miles away from where all these guys are at.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:04 am

kev, i agree . thats why i would like it though.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:09 am

Dino,
You would have enjoyed seeing Kiss and Ace for that matter embarrassing themselves?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:19 am

i don't know how to get out of this. Someone help me please. lol

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:41 am

i think trouble walkin has some good heavy 80s tunes. I dont think it would have ruined kiss, but it would have taken them in a different direction.
Peter however was not made for the mid to late 80s. I love Peter but he could not have been in the kiss band of the 80s.

Funny everyone says Ace wanted to do a 'Rock out record' instead of the elder but the songs he was writing in 83 and 84 when kiss were busting balls were dance tunes taking unmasked to the next level [youtube][/youtube]

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:07 pm

doublev2 wrote:i think trouble walkin has some good heavy 80s tunes. I dont think it would have ruined kiss, but it would have taken them in a different direction.
Peter however was not made for the mid to late 80s. I love Peter but he could not have been in the kiss band of the 80s.

Funny everyone says Ace wanted to do a 'Rock out record' instead of the elder but the songs he was writing in 83 and 84 when kiss were busting balls were dance tunes taking unmasked to the next level [youtube][/youtube]

Is it just me?
I think that sucks and I actually like Ace.

Didn't Trouble Walking have Ace's horrible version of "Hide Your Heart" and wasn't it during this time that he recorded his equally horrible version of Back on the Streets?

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:34 pm

We get it Slayer, you don't like Ace! BUT, technical ability isn't everything and I have good ears and all the leads that Ace recorded in the 70's and 80's are not shit! Ya gotta throw melody in at some point... for instance, I LOVE Mick Mars' solos on Home Sweet Home, Looks That Kill, Piece Of Your Action but they are no nowhere near technical and I can play 'em with one one hand on my dick but they still rock! Steve Lukather is killer but his best solo was a simple blues "bendy" solo in I Won't Hold You Back... pure emotion and it gets the point across. Vinnie is a fukn shredder but my fave solo of his is in Ecstasy... simple but pure emotion. A "shredder" type solo would've ruined that tune! Technical ability isn't everything!

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:15 pm

Slayer wrote:

Is it just me?
I think that sucks and I actually like Ace.

Didn't Trouble Walking have Ace's horrible version of "Hide Your Heart" and wasn't it during this time that he recorded his equally horrible version of Back on the Streets?

Not just you! It sux!

PW, Uncle Kev wasn't saying technique is everything! Just that Ace would have had a lot of trouble playing Vinnie's solos! Hey maybe it could have set a fire under his ass and then G & P wouldn't say that Ace never progressed as a guitar player! Which to be honest, he hasn't!

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:26 pm

Of course Ace would have trouble playing Vinnie's solos! It ain't possible haha! I'm looking at it as if Ace never left in 82... Vinnie's solos wouldn't exist! I'm strictly saying if Vinnie was just brought in as a songwriter on LIU and Ace was still the guitarist... NOT Ace replacing Vinnie.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:20 pm

PW,
Your absolutely correct in that technical ability isn't everything. I too like some Mick Mars and I actually like some Ace Frehley. If it wasn't for Ace, Paul, Joe Perry and Ted Nugent I never would have become interested in guitar many many years ago. I need to respectfully disagree when you use melody in conjunction with Ace because I think that is his basic liability in that he usually isn't melodic at all. He did play some good solo's in the 1970's but alas he played few good solos with Kiss in the 80's. Most of the good melody lines from the 70's were either played and written by Paul Stanley and or played by the likes of Dick Wagner uncredited.

Rock Bottom intro is melodic Ace and is excellent
King of the Night Time World - the Chuck Berry sounding beginning of the solo is Ace and the melodic part following is Dick Wagner.
Great Expectations = Dick Wagner
Flaming Youth intro is Dick Wagner
Detroit Rock City = Paul Stanley

Ace's 1st solo album had some great songs

Torpedo Girl is pretty cool

The Elder is when Ace starts to drive off a cliff

Frehley's Comet and 2nd Sighting I very much enjoyed and musically I believe are Ace at his best

I have Trouble Walking and Anomoly and I like 3 or 4 songs on those.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:38 pm

What's odd Slayer is I agree with you for the most part... but damn I love Ace's Dr. Love solo... and I may be in the minority on this but Ace's Dark Light solo is balls to the wall fukn BADASS!

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:13 pm

Kev, you liked second sighting ? Wow . That one I can not stand. I like the acorn song and insane but that's really it

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:12 am

PinkWiz wrote:What's odd Slayer is I agree with you for the most part... but damn I love Ace's Dr. Love solo... and I may be in the minority on this but Ace's Dark Light solo is balls to the wall fukn BADASS!

That's cool love those

There is nothing right or wrong here just our opinions of what works for us.

Rock on PW

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:15 am

doublev2 wrote:Kev, you liked second sighting ? Wow . That one I can not stand. I like the acorn song and insane but that's really it

Hi Dino,
Yes and I really like both Tod Howardth and Ritchie Scarlet's contributions when playing with Ace too.

I think that the Acorn is a creative concept

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:41 am

tod was a bit too much synth for me. Very nice guy. My dad and I hung out with him after a show (i was only 13 in '88). I found it funny Ace has a Les Paul and Tod a Steinberger. Such a contrast.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:14 am

I can't believe the Insane film clip was shown on an Aussie Saturday morning music show(The Factory with Andrew Daddo & Alex Papps)!!!

WOW!!! Real eye opener to a teen!!!!!!

[youtube][/youtube]

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:11 am

I watched and recorded the Insane clip on The Factory!!! Still got the VHS somewhere. I did like the cip!

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:16 am

Great looking girls in that great video. The song is cool too

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:44 pm

Great song from a good period for Ace

I don't remember The Factory? I got to Australia in January '89 so I may have missed it..? I remember video hits, smash hits, rage(still going) MTV Australia but not Factory... I'm not surprised Ace got played considering how big Rock music was in oz in the late 80's...

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:00 am

You were born in Brooklyn ny ? Which part? Did you know Brooklyn on its own is the 3rd largest city in the USA after la and Chicago.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:47 pm

Hey Dino, not born in Brooklyn, that's a reference to vinnie actually & how Gene & Paul insisted vinnie say he was born in Brooklyn because it made him seem tough as opposed to being from Bridgeport

everything about kiss related to their image & persona... Including where you are from!

I am very fond of Brooklyn though as I am of NY

I have an empire state of mind...

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:47 am

Ohh. I loved Brookly and nyc but the past 10 years I feel it has gotten too commercialized. To me its not the same place as the 80s/90s I knew. But still great.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:52 am

Seems like that's happening everywhere , here is happening the same , it's all ..like is say " fake " .-