The actual EMI/ Enigma history

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Thu Jun 22, 2023 10:41 pm

Thankfully, a friend sent me some articles from Billboard on the matter.

EMI never "owned" Enigma. It was a JV. Pretty much it all fell apart in November of 1990.

For Robert to attack Vinnie over "shopping the deal" is beyond ridiculous.

11/24/1990 Billboard

Hein: Enigma/Capitol Talking Divorce
By Chris Morris

Basically this article is about Enigma & Capitol ending their "Joint Venture"
Enigma President says if the Joint Venture was a "marriage" this is a divorce.

Enigma was going to lay off 27 employees at the time.

Enigma's partnership with EMI-Capitol didn't live up to expectations. The biggest success was Poison's "Flesh and Blood"

The Stryper album "Against The Law" fell to #200 after only 12 weeks on the charts.

One knowledgeable source said Capitol-EMI's investment totaled $15 Million. $7 Million for 1/2 interest. A $3 Million advance on entire purchase and a $5 Million line of credit.

Billboard 2-2-1991 "Inside Track" by Irv Lichtman

Enigma finished a company wide layoff with 10 employees Jan 16th.

According to the publicity VP Cary Baker, only 15 employees remain from a staff of 70

Billboard April 13, 1991 p78

Restless Entertainment is now the official new handle for Enigma Entertainment

They company moved out of its Culver City offices into a new space in Hollywood on Easter Sunday.

GM Joe Regis says they will finalize the end of their JV with Capitol-EMI this week.

--
doublev2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:14 pm
I own a record label that had two of the biggest selling songs of the 80s passed from my dad. My dad was head of a&r at RCA UK , emi and Parlaphone uk and a top executive at many others . I grew up in the industry . My dad also waa responsible for Frankie goes to Hollywood relax hysteria

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:33 am

If a label pays for the recording they own it. It costs them a lot of money. Vinnie will have gotten an advance payment too. That's absolutely the worst thing you can do is shop around a recording paid for by one label to another . The labels are mostly all friends . There. Is zero possibility of another re-recording the record for many reasons. Enigma themselves could have sat down with vv and discussed shopping it to another label if they had low finances or didn't like it but vv himself behing their backs..no way . The worst thing you can do.

1. They wouldn't ever trust vinnie to not do the same to them thallt he did to enigma.
2. He couldn't use the recordings in any form that enigma paid for so a complete re recording needed which is too risky seen as enigma could still sue.
3. Vinnie would be sured for breach of contact with enigma and even though they can't sue someone with nooney they could certainly take any unlikely profits from guitars from hell.
4. No label would put money into a record with no obvious commercial songs to play on mtv. Back them music videos were very expensive .
5. Vv reputation in tatters with what both enigma.and chrysalis said about him as well as Slaughter and kiss.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:42 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:33 am If a label pays for the recording they own it. It costs them a lot of money. Vinnie will have gotten an advance payment too. That's absolutely the worst thing you can do is shop around a recording paid for by one label to another . The labels are mostly all friends . There. Is zero possibility of another re-recording the record for many reasons. Enigma themselves could have sat down with vv and discussed shopping it to another label if they had low finances or didn't like it but vv himself behing their backs..no way . The worst thing you can do.

1. They wouldn't ever trust vinnie to not do the same to them thallt he did to enigma.
2. He couldn't use the recordings in any form that enigma paid for so a complete re recording needed which is too risky seen as enigma could still sue.
3. Vinnie would be sured for breach of contact with enigma and even though they can't sue someone with nooney they could certainly take any unlikely profits from guitars from hell.
4. No label would put money into a record with no obvious commercial songs to play on mtv. Back them music videos were very expensive .
5. Vv reputation in tatters with what both enigma.and chrysalis said about him as well as Slaughter and kiss.

I love how you completely dodge reality.

You don't admit you were completely wrong about Capitol owning Enigma.

You don't admit that Enigma was pretty much bankrupt during that time.

What did Enigma allegedly say about him? And we know KISS lied about him. You make claims of paople saying things (just like Robert) but then you can never back them up.

Right here you are completely dodging how all this shows you were 100% incorrect and instead of addressing that you try to change course.

And its still mind boggling how you think a company that is basically broke wouldn't love to have another label buy the masters/ Vinnie's contract from them. Even if they got .50 on the dollar, they would have loved it. They weren't going to put it out at all. There was no people in place at the label to work it. They didn't have any money. They were done. Everybody from the damn label had jumped ship or was already laid off pretty much.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:55 am

I don't know who owns enigma . On a quick Wikipedia it says capital owned enigma from 1989. I do know capital was the branding name for EMI in North America being the same label.

Also who ever owns enigma recordings now will have a right to sue vv if he puts those recordings out . It's unlikely as it won't make enough money for them to bother and it would take someone like me to tell them as most likely they wouldn't know .

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:57 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:55 am I don't know who owns enigma . On a quick Wikipedia it says capital owned enigma from 1989. I do know capital was the branding name for EMI in North America being the same label.

Also who ever owns enigma recordings now will have a right to sue vv if he puts those recordings out . It's unlikely as it won't make enough money for them to bother and it would take someone like me to tell them as most likely they wouldn't know .

Maybe don't rely on WIkipedia as a source because Capitol-EMI never owned Enigma.

and if Dad was an executive back in the day at EMI, I think one would know that and not rely on Wikipedia and trash an LA Times journalist for reporting the accurate information

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:00 am

Capital brand name for EMI in America Basically in late 80s. Like exxon gasoline is called esso in Europe

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:01 am

That's not true emi and capitol same at least for a long time. Not up on it now

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:02 am

Never know a guy accuse me of obviously incorrect things.
https://www.discogs.com/label/118487-Ca ... -Music-Inc

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:09 am

Here . Can't you search yourself ?

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/sc.13/category.23504/.f
EMI/Capitol Records
EMI is one of the greatest names in the history of music, with roots stretching right back to beginnings of recording. EMI has always been at the forefront of music around the world, bringing artists as diverse and influential as The Beatles, Queen, Pink Floyd, Robbie Williams, The Beach Boys and Maria Callas to international prominence. EMI was acquired by UMG in 2012.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:10 am

Contact Info:
Capitol-EMI Music, Inc.
1750 N. Vine Street
Hollywood,
California,
90028

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:12 am

You still say capitol not owned by emi? I can post over 200 links if you like or did you friend tell you that's all incorrect? And then you going to tell me I am a liar?

Luxor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:42 am
doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 1:33 am If a label pays for the recording they own it. It costs them a lot of money. Vinnie will have gotten an advance payment too. That's absolutely the worst thing you can do is shop around a recording paid for by one label to another . The labels are mostly all friends . There. Is zero possibility of another re-recording the record for many reasons. Enigma themselves could have sat down with vv and discussed shopping it to another label if they had low finances or didn't like it but vv himself behing their backs..no way . The worst thing you can do.

1. They wouldn't ever trust vinnie to not do the same to them thallt he did to enigma.
2. He couldn't use the recordings in any form that enigma paid for so a complete re recording needed which is too risky seen as enigma could still sue.
3. Vinnie would be sured for breach of contact with enigma and even though they can't sue someone with nooney they could certainly take any unlikely profits from guitars from hell.
4. No label would put money into a record with no obvious commercial songs to play on mtv. Back them music videos were very expensive .
5. Vv reputation in tatters with what both enigma.and chrysalis said about him as well as Slaughter and kiss.

I love how you completely dodge reality.

You don't admit you were completely wrong about Capitol owning Enigma.

You don't admit that Enigma was pretty much bankrupt during that time.

What did Enigma allegedly say about him? And we know KISS lied about him. You make claims of paople saying things (just like Robert) but then you can never back them up.

Right here you are completely dodging how all this shows you were 100% incorrect and instead of addressing that you try to change course.

And its still mind boggling how you think a company that is basically broke wouldn't love to have another label buy the masters/ Vinnie's contract from them. Even if they got .50 on the dollar, they would have loved it. They weren't going to put it out at all. There was no people in place at the label to work it. They didn't have any money. They were done. Everybody from the damn label had jumped ship or was already laid off pretty much.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:18 am

Just to clear this up. This capitol emi thing is over. You wrong.

Head of a&r means incharge of what bands a label signs.. a lot of people call that running the label but obviously that's not totally accurate as the owner, chairman, ceo, managers etc run it but the person who is head of what bands are signed and what music is put out of head of a&r.

Your the mind of guy who thinks a producer is an engineer fiddling with the mixer etc .

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:52 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:09 am Here . Can't you search yourself ?

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/sc.13/category.23504/.f
EMI/Capitol Records
EMI is one of the greatest names in the history of music, with roots stretching right back to beginnings of recording. EMI has always been at the forefront of music around the world, bringing artists as diverse and influential as The Beatles, Queen, Pink Floyd, Robbie Williams, The Beach Boys and Maria Callas to international prominence. EMI was acquired by UMG in 2012.

What is this garbage link supposed to prove??! Odd you can't come up with any actual legitimate news stories or anything else on the subject. You are really grasping at straws

You were proven you don't know anything about Capitol-EMI / Enigma. Just move on!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:55 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:18 am Just to clear this up. This capitol emi thing is over. You wrong.

Head of a&r means incharge of what bands a label signs.. a lot of people call that running the label but obviously that's not totally accurate as the owner, chairman, ceo, managers etc run it but the person who is head of what bands are signed and what music is put out of head of a&r.

Your the mind of guy who thinks a producer is an engineer fiddling with the mixer etc .

No, are you are completely wrong. You've changed your story and what your dad "allegedly" did several times.

Capitol never owned Enigma like you claimed. Legitimate professional sources prove you are wrong on that.

If your dad was an exec at EMI, he would have known that and you probably would have as well.

You didn't have any access to VVI or Slaughter back in the day.

You didn't even know how much airplay VVI got on MTV. You didn't even know what rotation on MTV meant

You've been wrong pretty much every claim you've made

You don't use any legitimate sources. To you, wikipedia is a source

I thought you said you were leaving?! What happened?

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:56 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:10 am Contact Info:
Capitol-EMI Music, Inc.
1750 N. Vine Street
Hollywood,
California,
90028

What that supposed to prove?

What does that have to do with Capitol-EMI being in a JV with Enigma? Nothing! They Capitol-EMI didn't own Enigma. They bought 50%. They were in a JV with Enigma. And then it all went south.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:58 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:00 am Capital brand name for EMI in America Basically in late 80s. Like exxon gasoline is called esso in Europe

And what does that have to do with your made up claims Capitol-EMI owned Enigma? Nothing!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 3:59 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:01 am That's not true emi and capitol same at least for a long time. Not up on it now

That has nothing to do with your made up claim Capitol-EMI owned Enigma.

I don't know why you started off on this completely other road except for you to try and duck what you actually said.

You said Capitol-(EMI) owned Enigma. They didn't. Fact. As I backed up.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:03 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:12 am You still say capitol not owned by emi? I

Look how DoubleV changes things entirely! Who questioned Capitol-EMI?

What I said is that Capitol-EMI never owned Enigma!

Do you see how Double V operates?! And he still won't apologize! He should apologize big time, but I know he won't.

One can say Capitol didn't own Enigma. One can say EMI didn't own Enigma. One can say Capitol-EMI didn't own Enigma. All of those would be true and accurate and the complete opposite of what Double V is falsely claiming.

He falsely claimed Capitol bought Enigma in 1989. They didn't. Capitol-EMI bought a 50% stake in Enigma and they had a Joint Venture with them.

Double V also attacked an accurate story in the LA Times and to attack it he used the "highly unreliable" Wikipedia to prove it was incorrect.

viewtopic.php?f=37&p=133667#p133667

doublev2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:17 pm
Enigma were in position to release...why would they put out an album that they paid for and the artist used the recording to try and get a better deal? On top of that 1990 this music was so out of date for the target teenage audience .

Enigma owned by capital records at time with huge resources..the issue is vinnie. The material was highly uncommercial and grunge Rock had taken over . It's nothing short of a miracle Slaughter went double platinum in 1990.

Just remember, Enigma was in zero position to release Guitars From Hell.

Enigma was NOT owned by Capitol or Capitol-EMI. Capitol-EMI had a JV with Enigma. That's it.

Before GFH was even finished, Enigma was out of money, out of employees and was being folded under.

and Grunge had not taken over in 1990 or early 1991 before Enigma was finished.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:28 am

Omg!!! Why am I talking to you. Capitol owned enigma.. no question. Check this link but there is way more

https://www.discogs.com/label/412720-En ... ol-Records

Luxor wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:03 am
doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:12 am You still say capitol not owned by emi? I

Look how DoubleV changes things entirely! Who questioned Capitol-EMI?

What I said is that Capitol-EMI never owned Enigma!

Do you see how Double V operates?! And he still won't apologize! He should apologize big time, but I know he won't.

One can say Capitol didn't own Enigma. One can say EMI didn't own Enigma. One can say Capitol-EMI didn't own Enigma. All of those would be true and accurate and the complete opposite of what Double V is falsely claiming.

He falsely claimed Capitol bought Enigma in 1989. They didn't. Capitol-EMI bought a 50% stake in Enigma and they had a Joint Venture with them.

Double V also attacked an accurate story in the LA Times and to attack it he used the "highly unreliable" Wikipedia to prove it was incorrect.

viewtopic.php?f=37&p=133667#p133667

doublev2 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:17 pm
Enigma were in position to release...why would they put out an album that they paid for and the artist used the recording to try and get a better deal? On top of that 1990 this music was so out of date for the target teenage audience .

Enigma owned by capital records at time with huge resources..the issue is vinnie. The material was highly uncommercial and grunge Rock had taken over . It's nothing short of a miracle Slaughter went double platinum in 1990.

Just remember, Enigma was in zero position to release Guitars From Hell.

Enigma was NOT owned by Capitol or Capitol-EMI. Capitol-EMI had a JV with Enigma. That's it.

Before GFH was even finished, Enigma was out of money, out of employees and was being folded under.

and Grunge had not taken over in 1990 or early 1991 before Enigma was finished.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:30 am

I am going to stop posting here as I am not happy getting bashed about a debate about who owns what and constantly being told I lie and get things wrong .. I have proved everything and he is still going after me

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:33 am

Himmmmm are you still going to say I am wrong Luxor. Posion look what the cat dragged in etchttps://www.discogs.com/label/962189-EnigmaCapitol-Records-Inc

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:36 am

Hmmmm hmmmmmm . Check the label.
Capitol/enigma https://www.discogs.com/master/94324-Po ... nd-Say-Ahh

I am arguing with a guy that said vinnie vincent was as big as Aerosmith haha

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:38 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:28 am Omg!!! Why am I talking to you. Capitol owned enigma.. no question. Check this link but there is way more

https://www.discogs.com/label/412720-En ... ol-Records

Why would I care about some meaningless link from a non-news source? I know you think Wikipedia and garbage links like that one "prove something".

And we know you attacked Legitimate articles and the authors from the LA Times because it told the truth. And you hated what Billboard had to say on the matter it seems. They spoke the truth. But you don't want to believe legitimate news sources.

Theres no question Capitol-EMI didn't own Enigma! You are 100% wrong just like pretty much everything you "claim" around here.

The legimate news outlets (from back in the day) made clear it was a Joint Venture between Capitol-EMI and Enigma.

And if your dad actually worked at EMI he would have known that and he would have informed you about it since you claimed you were an Invasion fan back in the day. But it seems like all you have is "claims" and no knowledge of the time period or music industry in general.

Its a shame you can't apologize to me and the board!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:39 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:36 am Hmmmm hmmmmmm . Check the label.
Capitol/enigma https://www.discogs.com/master/94324-Po ... nd-Say-Ahh

I am arguing with a guy that said vinnie vincent was as big as Aerosmith haha

That was one of the Joint Venture releases. Hell, the Billboard stuff I posted talks about that. Try and pay attention!

and maybe try getting some real sources as well.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:41 am

doublev2 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:30 am I am going to stop posting here as I am not happy getting bashed about a debate about who owns what and constantly being told I lie and get things wrong .. I have proved everything and he is still going after me

You keep saying that but then you keep coming back and posting incorrect stuff.

You have proven nothing except you don't know what you are taking about on the matter.

And remember, it was you who challenged me and you brought up the false info and acted like Enigma was in a position to release and you falsely claimed they were owned by Capitol etc. You started all this because you wanted to attack Vinnie. You didn't care that Robert was making stuff up.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:04 am

i Sincerely would like to know the point of this debate about such minutiae.Life is really too short.

Luxor, you made already clear enough in the past you don't like DoubleV, i-and maybe this a is a problem of mine-don't see why you have to start all those threads and pester the forum with this, unless it makes you feel better as person,in this case more power to you.

Vinncent himself didn't make clear what happened and that may have lead to speculations,but the crux of the matter dinì't change one iota.The record didn't come out ,for whatever reasons.
Double V started a forum years ago and made a forum for the people who were fan of V, gave to Cusano himself the forum for free and offered a lot of help- for free.He and all the forumites were banned by the man himself,for reasons only he could understand.

And,when it comes to lie and decit, the behavior of Cusano had too often raised more than an eyebrow, case in point the last post with a supposedely false profile.
As much as i can understand your passion for all things Vinnie, maybe sometimes too much of it has lead you into trouble, like it happend on Kissfaq recently.
I would be very,very happy if you share your knowledge, without having to start crusades against people who don't share your point of view.

Peace!!!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Sat Jun 24, 2023 5:25 am

ankh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:04 am i Sincerely would like to know the point of this debate about such minutiae.Life is really too short.
Peace!!!

It should not have been any debate. But DoubleV alwqys has to chime in with his false information. And then when confronted with reality, he still can't let it go.

He attacks the journalists, you name it. Then he spams garbage links that mean nothing and most of them had nothing to do with Enigma but saying Capitol-EMI were together.

He loves posting false information and he makes a ton of false claims.

Life is too short. I hope he does move on and not post anymore. He said he would quit numerous times but he doesn't.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:30 am

Lux, baby, it seems like deja vu but I am asking you to chill. Why so angry man? You don't like what someone says, ignore it rather than attack them, in any way, shape or form.

It really seems I had this going on with someone else before?.......and you got banned at KISSFAQ? Well, you're close to having it happen here.

Nobody knows what fuels you, it is without fathom.

Post away, but be nice and stop the hate, or you won't have a platform anymore.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:36 am

You are confusing me with another poster.

And who is angry? I'm not. Why should I be? I brought the facts that someone challenged me on.

Do you have a problem with people posting the truth and being able to back it up?

I think you would be happy to know Robert wasn't being accurate and Vinnie was doing nothing wrong. Wouldn't you rather deal with what actually happened instead of believing "legends" and other things?

I think the other poster made it clear I wasn't gaslighting or anything. Its a debate. If one makes claims, they should be able to back it up or not debate. And when proven wrong, it would help if they move on.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:40 am

Well, to everyone else you seem angry, soooooo........

No confusion with another poster.

Just try to chill down. Debate is possible but you, like others before, seem to have a hard time with it and cause way too much friction.

Maybe it's your personality, I don't know you in real life, but try and make your online self a bit more relaxed.

You've said and posted a lot, let it sink in and people can think what they want.

Vinnie is no saint, so nothing you post about Enigma is going to change that.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Sun Jun 25, 2023 1:55 am

Genebaby wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:40 am Well, to everyone else you seem angry, soooooo........

I don't think that's accurate. In fact, one poster had no problem with what I was saying and he had no problem with the debate.

But you are right on one point. People can read actual scans of what happened from legitimate sources or they can believe something entirely different. It's up to them what they choose to believe.

While correcting the record of Robert's disinformation about Enigma and acting like that cost Vinnie his deal won't change many people's opinion, that's true.

But look how many false things people believe about Vinnie that aren't accurate from the past?

People are still shockingly saying Vinnie was kicked out of KISS twice. Not true at all. The evidence has been out there for years and years. But people still repeat that.

There's people who think VVI videos didn't get airplay -when they got great rotation on MTV

People still falsely claiming Vinnie got kicked out of his own band. It doesn't matter how many times Bobby shot down that myth, people keep saying it.

There's people who act like Invasion albums didn't sell. You name it. So many people have been so many falsehoods about Vinnie and they all add up and take a toll.

It would be great if a site Dedicated to Vinnie cared about getting rid of so many of those things that aren't true.

He is no Saint, nobody says he is. But a site dedicated to Vinnie should be one that seeks the truth always and a site that should want to destroy all the fake claims and myths.

teej · Post by **teej** » Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:49 pm

Man .. I've had to block this bell-end on 4 different user names on 2 different forums and I just know it never gives up despite being constantly banned for being an out and out tool .. and you can be sure it's old sphincter from KISS faq .. exactly the same attitude and bullshit way of writing

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:18 pm

Yes, I had tried to explain to him that it's him and his style that is the issue, not the other way around.

Let's see if there is a change of ways and attitude, but I'm not hopeful. He seems to have been baptised in the Vinnie Kool-aid and been swimming in it since.

teej · Post by **teej** » Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:24 am

He /she /it just thrives on the same bullshit and is nothing but a really delusional troll

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:28 am

Yes Teej, and when you see the zealot level shit going on on the Facebook group/s it's understandable. Some of those people are bat shit crazy.

Actuall Vinnie fans who truly appreciate his music should be here. Those that see him as an entinty of good that can do no wrong can stay on Facebook in the mess they have made.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:43 am

teej wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 8:24 am He /she /it just thrives on the same bullshit and is nothing but a really delusional troll

Sorry you don't like people calling out misinformation and setting the record straight.

Very few would call that "trolling". Especially on a fan site.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you love people pushing fake news and information, that's fine too. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

Maybe there could be a separate section. One where people bash Vinnie 24/7 and make up stuff.

and then another where they talk about how great his music is and talk about the real history etc. And also bring up they want Vinnie to tour and other things. I would rather converse with actual fans who love Vinnie and his music

It would be great if there was a Happy Medium between the Facebook Groups and a site like this. You have the extremes represented in each.

One site only constant praise and you can't mention other members etc

The other mostly focusing on the negative constantly and a few "who speak out" who get upset when people call out misinformation or speak out about some always posting negative stuff all the time on a Vinnie fan site.

You get bet the almost 1100 members would love a happy medium and not what it currently is. That's why only maybe 20 or so actually post anytime. The others, they may read but they are silent most of the time. And its easy to see why.

A happy medium would be great for sure.

PEACE OUT

teej · Post by **teej** » Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:09 pm

The sad truth is that vv has done nothing of worth since Ronald Regan was a president of the USA.. he didn't pick up his shit after he came back .. he just saw a revenue stream and has produced nothing of worth ever since .. how anyone can hero worship that is utterly beyond me

teej · Post by **teej** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 5:52 pm

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Jun 28, 2023 7:21 pm

I've seen that one somewhere, or it might have had less names but same concept.

I know they aren't all quite the same person, but Vinnie is a lot of them, and it's quite the list.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:47 am

teej wrote: ↑Tue Jun 27, 2023 10:09 pm The sad truth is that vv has done nothing of worth since Ronald Regan was a president of the USA.. he didn't pick up his shit after he came back .. he just saw a revenue stream and has produced nothing of worth ever since .. how anyone can hero worship that is utterly beyond me

You should be proud. You've brought in stuff from the two biggest Vinnie haters on the KISSFAQ. The biggest sources of disinformation on that board. Why didn't you post one of the numerous Red Reagan/Vinnie graphics? I mean, you've posted a graphic from the #1 hater of Vinnie (with the Spiderman nonsense).

But now you claim as Red does that Vinnie has done nothing of worth since RR in 1988? Sorry you feel that way.

Fans of Vinnie's music would disagree with you, Red and Hand ... I believe. Some would say VInnie did his best work after Reagan left office. A good number of fans might not have heard it. And we are in a thread about why that album never got released. Maybe you've never heard any of it. You should have at least heard "The Ep"/ "Euphoria" if nothing else.

Its a shame you don't think "Guitars From Hell" is 'nothing of worth'. I personally, being a huge fan of Vinnie's music think it is his best work ever.

The songs are incredible to me. They certainly blow away the songs & production on All Systems Go.

You also don't consider his work with KISS anything of worth? How horrible of an album would KISS have put out if not for Vinnie being brought back in? I think everyone agrees, Revenge (which Vinnie named) could have been even better had Vinnie played on the actual album (instead of just some demos). Gene wanted Vinnie to and Vinnie declined.

The album also would have been vastly better IMO, if they had just had all 10-12 tracks songs Vinnie co-wrote with Gene and Paul. Too much filler on "Revenge" IMO. Kiss could have had a masterpiece. But it was vastly better than their last album that didn't sell. Thankfully, "Hot In The Shade" sold so bad, they were pretty much forced to bring back Vinnie.

But you really don't think that was "something of worth"??

I also was pleased that Vinnie went back into the studio in Nashville and created what became "The Ep"/ "Euphoria". You don't think those are anything of worth?

To most KISS fans, KISS hasn't created "Anything of Worth" musically since Revenge. Some may disagree with that but I think the vast majority could have cared less about COS, Psycho Circus, Sonic Boom and Monster.

I'm sorry you don't think songs like "Genesis", "Nuke It", "Get The Led Out" and others are "something of worth".

drmoorejr · Post by **drmoorejr** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:10 am

Sorry I have too many things to do but I do try and come and read these posts as I am able.. I am not so sure I see any aggressive behavior on the Luxor posted comments. Obviously He/She feel passionate about Vinnie's work. nothing wrong with that, but one would hope that He/She can acknowledge Vinnie's short-comings as well. And to be clear, yes Vinnie did great things in music, but now days, not so great. I sure hope that changes though.

drmoorejr · Post by **drmoorejr** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:12 am

Luxor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:47 am
I'm sorry you don't think songs like "Genesis", "Nuke It", "Get The Led Out" and others are "something of worth".

..because there are FAR better songs from Vinnie, like "Over You" and "Gypsy In Her Eyes"... and a country song called "Born A Country Girl" that I haven't had the chance to hear....

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:06 am

GFH never got released, just low quality demos that aren't great to listen to, but give you an idea of what the song could be.

The EP/Euphoria is not great, I just hate those drums and hope the entire album, when it does ever get released, does not have shitty fake drums. It would be ruination again.

Vinnie has some great stuff since Regean, but not released, just demos. I love Forbidden and stuff like that, Vinnie's pop sensibilities shine through, he really can do it all but chooses to be stagnate.

teej · Post by **teej** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:00 pm

Seems like sphincter aka chuckynygroove got banned again at faq

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:32 pm

drmoorejr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:10 am Sorry I have too many things to do but I do try and come and read these posts as I am able.. I am not so sure I see any aggressive behavior on the Luxor posted comments. Obviously He/She feel passionate about Vinnie's work. nothing wrong with that, but one would hope that He/She can acknowledge Vinnie's short-comings as well. And to be clear, yes Vinnie did great things in music, but now days, not so great. I sure hope that changes though.

THANK YOU! I really didn't understand that post either. In fact, I think I had been beyond nice and accommodating considering what was going on.

When one looked at what was happening. Billboard scan after Billboard scan of reality and then I was still being called out for being wrong, you name it.

I've never seen anyone go so far as to "claim" that all the reporters from Billboard, LA Times, etc all got the story wrong over a 4 year period. It was "bad reporting" during that entire time. By multiple authors. And even direct quotes from the owner didn't matter. That was wrong too.

It should have been over almost immediately. Once I provided the first bit of evidence, that should have ended it. But as we know, some people can't let something go when they are wrong.

And when one person does that time and time again, its odd the person who can't accept the facts and reality aren't the one called out. Not the one bringing the receipts.

We lost a really good poster because that other person couldn't accept the truth when it was presented. What was the reaction then? It seemed like one was supposed to Doxx themselves and provide their "background" in the music business because they called out another who made all sorts of "claims" and have never backed up anything they said. Not to mention, almost everything they have said has turned out false. They didn't even believe the Head Of Chrysalis said what he said about VVI helping to break Slaughter. Even though the full text of the Billboard article was posted. The date. The page number. That wasn't good enough.

People were even questioned if they were a fan of VVI back in the day. Because if they were they would have known VVI videos werent played at all on MTV. And nobody in their HS knew anything about VVi.

It didn't matter that the MTV rotation stats were given from Billboard. That poster didn't even know what "Rotation" meant.

When the stuff about "Ashes" being released as a single and that information was posted. They of course claimed that never happened. Regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

So if one looks how many times someone can't accept evidence of reality. Maybe the one who is posting the accurate information shouldn't be the one called out.

But thank you for your support!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:38 pm

drmoorejr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:12 am
Luxor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:47 am
I'm sorry you don't think songs like "Genesis", "Nuke It", "Get The Led Out" and others are "something of worth".
..because there are FAR better songs from Vinnie, like "Over You" and "Gypsy In Her Eyes"... and a country song called "Born A Country Girl" that I haven't had the chance to hear....

But you disagree with RedInTheSky and his big fan Teej that Vinnie hasn't done anything of worth since 1988?

I like "Over You" but I certainly wouldn't call it far better ...

I really enjoy "Gypsy" but that's prior to Ronald Reagan leaving office. Very strong song.

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:47 pm

Genebaby wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:06 am GFH never got released, just low quality demos that aren't great to listen to, but give you an idea of what the song could be.

The EP/Euphoria is not great, I just hate those drums and hope the entire album, when it does ever get released, does not have shitty fake drums. It would be ruination again.

Vinnie has some great stuff since Regean, but not released, just demos. I love Forbidden and stuff like that, Vinnie's pop sensibilities shine through, he really can do it all but chooses to be stagnate.

Even if one doesn't have access to some of the recordings that Vinnie has made available to some (although had to agree not to share the material with anyone) ... there's some very good demos of alot of the songs out there.

One can't tell this is a great song from this?

I've heard bands put lower quality on an official release on a box set

I do love the song "Forbidden"

It's a shame, Jeff didn't use a bunch of those Vinnie songs on the 1990 "Eyes" debut

drmoorejr · Post by **drmoorejr** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:22 am

Luxor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:38 pm
drmoorejr wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:12 am
Luxor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:47 am
I'm sorry you don't think songs like "Genesis", "Nuke It", "Get The Led Out" and others are "something of worth".
..because there are FAR better songs from Vinnie, like "Over You" and "Gypsy In Her Eyes"... and a country song called "Born A Country Girl" that I haven't had the chance to hear....

But you disagree with RedInTheSky and his big fan Teej that Vinnie hasn't done anything of worth since 1988?

I like "Over You" but I certainly wouldn't call it far better ...

I really enjoy "Gypsy" but that's prior to Ronald Reagan leaving office. Very strong song.

Yes I disagree. Vinnie has, but if it was since George W. Bush days then I would agree. But regardless, "Over You" is a masterpiece and the song has been neglected by Vinnie. It should have been released as a fully produced song. I fault Vinnie. If that was my song, I would sell my soul or kill a person to have it recorded and produced and released. I have so many ideas for that song, but Vinnie just doesn't have any motivation. That enough that some should have told Vinnie to his face he fucked up, and can only blame himself. Everything doesn't matter... Thats my biggest issue, next is no public performance of FULL songs... very far down my list was the Fan Jam thing, but on the list none then less.

drmoorejr · Post by **drmoorejr** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:26 am

I will go further to say, have Kelly Clarkson sing it... She has a great voice. See Vinnie as smart as he is, is so short sighted that he is sabotaging every opportunity he gets,

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:56 am

I posted a while ago that a killer combination would be Vinnie working with Lady Gaga, I would love to hear what he could make her do.