Gene lies about Vinnie for Guitar World story on Vinnie saving KISS

[Luxor]

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/ge ... ie-vincent


Gene Simmons: "Everything Vinnie Vincent did sounded like Yngwie Malmsteen on crack"
By Andrew Daly published about 7 hours ago

Kiss's always-colorful bassist reflects on how he and Paul Stanley wrestled with the band's identity – and Vinnie Vincent's unorthodox, fleet-fingered ideas – on Creatures of the Night, 40 years on




The passing of time has proved fruitful for Kiss' 1982 heavy metal hammer, Creatures of the Night. And if you ask most Kiss fans – even original lineup diehards – quite a few will probably cite Creatures as one of their favorites in Kiss's catalog.



It wasn't always that way for the masked crusaders, as back when Creatures of the Night was released, most pundits deemed Kiss a band on the rocks. From the outside looking in, things seemed dire for Kiss, and internally, according to bassist Gene Simmons, things weren't much better.


"We were walking on one leg," Simmons says. "If I could paint you a picture, it would be of us being completely unsure of ourselves. By the time Creatures happened, we were barely a band. It was just Paul [Stanley] and me, with a cast of musicians around us that we brought in to help us record. Of course, we had Eric Carr, who was a great drummer, but he was still very new."




"For the first time ever, we had outsider writers coming to help us write songs," Simmons continues. "It really was a difficult time for us because, for the first time in history, we felt extremely unsure of what we were doing in Kiss. We'd always believed in the vision of Kiss, but things had gone so far off course, and we weren't sure how to right the ship."


With the release of Music from "The Elder" in 1981, Kiss lost their credibility not only with fans and critics, but also their lead guitarist, Ace Frehley. After years of pleading with his bandmates to return to the bread and butter-hard rock that granted Kiss fame and fortune, Frehley had become wildly disillusioned with Kiss's direction. Moreover, his substance abuse and erratic behavior further exasperated an already troubled situation.



"By the time Creatures happened, Ace was already gone," recalls Simmons. "Ace doesn't appear on a single song on Creatures of the Night. His only appearance was in the promotional shots, and he did us a favor by appearing in the I Love it Loud music video. But even that was a mistake because he clearly didn't know the song and had to fake his way through the entire thing. So, not only were we feeling very unsure of what we were doing, we didn't even have a lead guitarist."


With Kiss's back against the wall, the bonded-through-music duo of Simmons and Stanley rallied. Ever resolute, albeit with outside help, the longtime bandmates set to work on creating a record that would not only bring Kiss back to the forefront of rock music, but would be remembered for years to come.


"Even with all that was happening, the magic of Kiss shined through," relishes Simmons. "We were down two original members and had no guitar player, but the songs surprisingly turned out just fine. And I have to say, we couldn't have done it without Eric [Carr]. He worked very hard to bring in that heavier drum sound, and with his help, many of those songs like War Machine, and I Love It Loud became staples that are still in our set to this day."


Of the many memorable and poignant moments that manifested from the Creatures of the Night sessions, Simmons and Stanley's approach to "replacing" Frehley was the most interesting. Instead of hiring a new six-stringer, Kiss held open auditions in concert with the recording of Creatures of the Night.


"We had to find a workaround for the Ace issue," recalls Simmons. "And that wasn't easy because, for all his issues, Ace was a unique player. We held open auditions out in L.A., and everyone from Richie Sambora to Slash to Doug Aldrich to Punky Meadows came down. None of them were a fit, but we couldn't wait around for the right person.


"So, we went ahead and recorded Creatures with session players. Guys like Steve Farris, Robben Ford, and a guitarist who at the time was called Vincent Cusano."


Depending on who you talk to, Vincent Cusano, aka Vinnie Vincent, either saved Kiss or was akin to a stomach-churning plague on earth. Of course, if you asked Vincent, he'd probably agree with the former. Regardless, one thing is certain – Vincent added much-needed texture and color to an era shrouded in darkness. But are his contributions overstated?


(from left) Gene Simmons, Vinnie Vincent and Paul Stanley perform with Kiss at the UIC Pavillion in Chicago on February 15, 1984

(from left) Gene Simmons, Vinnie Vincent and Paul Stanley perform with Kiss at the UIC Pavilion in Chicago on February 15, 1984 (Image credit: Paul Natkin/Getty Images)

"I do feel Vinnie's contributions are overstated," asserts Simmons. "I feel they're overstated, and I'll tell you why: to begin with, that's not even Vinnie playing on the entire record. He played on a few tracks in total. And Vinnie will often talk about his songwriting on Creatures, and yes, he helped with several, but the contributions of Adam Mitchell are there, too. But even that was an issue because we were writing at Adam's house, and Vinnie cornered me and said, 'Hey, forget about this Adam guy. I should be writing the songs. We don't need him.'”


"Looking back, I thought that was pretty sneaky," continues Simmons. "It was sneaky and an early indicator of Vinnie's character, but we went along with it. And one of the first things we came up with was I Love It Loud. I was living with Diana Ross and I was at her Beverly Hills house one day, and I remembered coming up an early version of that song.


"It was a simple thing – I was referencing the melody of The Who's My Generation, and I came up with the chords and the melody. And I remember calling Vinnie, getting him involved, and he actually wrote most of the lyrics."


As creative as Vincent was and fruitful as his relationship with Simmons and Stanley could be, problems were immediately apparent. A war of clashing styles erupted in the studio, with Simmons and Stanley fighting with Vincent to amalgamate him into the Kiss machine.


"I remember that Vinnie brought in Killer." recounts Simmons. "We liked it, but he fought tooth and nail over the solo. Vinnie wanted to make every solo this massive thing. But Paul and I would bring him specific solos; we gave them to him and asked him to play them verbatim, but he refused.


"He didn’t want to do that, but honestly, everything that Vinnie did sounded like Yngwie Malmsteen on crack. You know, the kind of stuff that the rest of us normal human beings hate. It was ridiculous, and it certainly wasn't Kiss."


"It got to the point where we had to put our foot down," Simmons continues. "We said, 'Look, you're going to play the notes exactly as we tell you to.' And that's how the solo for I Love It Loud came together. We didn't need to be ripping apart the puzzle pieces of his solos and trying to splice them together, and that's what was happening.


"We didn't feel we needed to be in a situation where we were fighting with Vinnie Vincent over how the songs should sound. He wasn't a member of Kiss – to remind everyone, Vinnie Vincent was never an official, legal member of Kiss. To this day, Vinnie Vincent has never signed a contract with Kiss."


With the sessions for Creatures of the Night breaking down into a battleground, Kiss had every reason to fold their tent, but miraculously, they came out the other side. That luster of self-assurance, however, quickly wore off in the months that followed Creatures of the Night's release, with Kiss running headlong into hordes of non-believing fans and indifferent critics.


"Even after we finished Creatures, Kiss were in flux," Simmons says. "We were by no means out of the woods. We didn't know who would be in the band, and the times were changing. Hair metal was coming in – bands younger than us – and when Creatures came out, it didn't do well at all. But we liked the record, and we stood by it.


"We had this great stage show with a tank – we called it the 'Tank Tour' internally – but it was poorly attended in the US," Simmons laments. "But strangely, when we went to South America, places like Brazil, we played to the largest crowds Kiss had ever played for.


"We had a show where we played for 135,000 people and another with over 200,000. And after that, we looked at each other and finally thought there was some hope. We knew we still had an audience, but we also knew we would have to make changes."


Now, 40 years after its release, Creatures of the Night is no longer a forgotten record in the Kiss discography. The near-death backstory, messy exit of Ace Frehley, and the blustering entrance of Vinnie Vincent all provide a colorful backdrop to a truly outstanding record. As for Simmons, when asked, the bassist quipped that Creatures of the Night is "one of my favorite Kiss records," a sentiment many fans seem to share.


It seems that the drama, infighting and uncertainty surrounding Creatures have washed away, leaving fans to relish the spoils of an outstanding heavy metal record. What’s more, Creatures is an interesting case study on success, overindulgence and the pitfalls of the rock 'n' roll lifestyle. And, of course, there's the malevolent Vinnie Vincent and his gunslinging exploits. Vincent might not have saved Kiss, but Creatures of the Night, in many ways, did.


"When I look back, despite his demons, in some ways, Ace was right," admits Simmons. "We did need to make a rock record. And he had said that all along; Ace had said that The Elder was not the record that Kiss should make, and he was right. But the thing is, we had people around us telling us it was a good idea, and things didn't go according to plan. We got off track. That happens in bands, and Kiss is no exception. So, where Ace was wrong was, he didn't stick with the band.”


"Having said that, when I look back on Creatures, even though it wasn't successful initially, I look at it as us finding our footing again," Simmons reflects. "And when you look at Animalize, Asylum and Crazy Nights, these are all gold and multi-platinum records. We went on to sell out arenas and headlined outdoor festivals worldwide. I don't think many bands could have gone through the changes we have, as many times as we have, and still come out successful.


"We have defied what managers would recommend time and time again, and Creatures was the start of that second era of success for Kiss. We said, 'We're sticking to our guns, and we'll tread water as the grounding is shaking, knowing that we will come out the other side.'"

[Luxor]

One of the funniest comments I saw about Gene's lies was (paraphrasing)
They wish Gene had been on crack with his horrible songwriting back then. At least then, he'd have an excuse.

Pretty much nobody knew who Malmsteen was in 1982.

Odd how, Lick It Up is not mentioned at all by Gene. He loves to attack Vinnie because the focus on Creatures goes back to Vinnie saving KISS and neither Gene nor Paul can handle the truthful narrative.

If Vinnie was so horrible, then why was the next album pretty much all Vinnie? That's the first thing that should be asked of him.

If Vinnie wasn't some huge savior, then why was Gene begging Vinnie to return for Animalize? Everyone knows how bad the songs are on that album. They definitely needed Vinnie.

Gene doesn't talk about bringing Vinnie back for Revenge at all.

Gene brings up Adam Mitchell who has some of the worst songs with KISS.
They certainly didn't go to Mitchell on LIU. He wasn't there for Animalize. He wasn't there for Asylum. They finally bring him back for Crazy Nights and the results aren't good at all. After Crazy Nights failed, Adam was basically left writing tracks from C-List acts on $immons Records or other Gene projects. Very avg songs for Silent Rage & Rockology stuff with Bruce and Eric Carr.

Notice Gene even fails to mention "Lick It Up" and its incredible success after Lick It Up. Instead he goes from COTN to albums alot of KISS fans don't like Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights.

Gene should be kissing Vinnie's ass for what he did for he and Paul back in 1982 and 1983.


Also did anyone else catch how Gene changed what Vinnie said at Adam's house?
But even that was an issue because we were writing at Adam's house, and Vinnie cornered me and said, 'Hey, forget about this Adam guy. I should be writing the songs. We don't need him.'”

Look how he added the "we don't need him" and "forget this Adam guy". Odd, how Gene has told the story countless times but he changes it to make Vinnie look bad.

Fragile Egos for sure.

[shramiac]

Some good points, Lux.

And yes! No one in the US knew who Yngwie was in 1982, apart from Mike Varney & Paul Gilbert. Guessing Gene just used it as an example...though I once saw someone describe the Animal outro solo as sounding like Yngwie on crack, years ago. Maybe Gene had seen that too? (I love that outro btw )

There is always a little rewriting of KISS' history it seems.

Sadly, there were ego clashes from everyone.

[Genebaby]

I would say Gene referencing Yngwie is from today, maybe seeing that article Shramiac talks about. He would not have been thinking that back in the day.

It is also in referene to the stuff they DIDN"T want Vinnie to play, not what he eventually did play, and remember, Vinnie was not all over the album and he had three songs on it.

Again for LIU Vinnie was restrained, and I like it, it fits KISS and the album is briliant. The VVI album (which I just played as my daughter and I washed her car just now) was Vinnie unrestrained, and I told my daugher this. Listen to those guitars, they are screaming!!! I love that too.

Not all fans think all those songs and albums are crap, again, I love listening to those albums too. They are not as good as LIU, but they are great KISS albums I enjoy, so you just cannot disparage someone like Adam Mitchell, or those albums because of your feelings. Animalize was more successful than LIU at the time, and it has some really cool songs. Could have had better ones, but it is what it is.

As we can see, Vinnie was not the musical director and force behind Creatures, he was writing for the style of album they were looking to do, and he played what was asked/told of him. If he was musical director then Creatures and LIU would have been as crazy as the VVI album. That would have been interesting, but the albums as they are are great KISS albums.

[pullitt]

"For the first time ever, we had outsider writers coming to help us write songs," Simmons continues.

Lol.

[doublev2]

Vinnie had very little influence on creatures which is a better record than lick it up.
Eric Carr also definitely helped save kiss with the producer and engineer of creatures with that mammoth drum sound. Vinnie only co wrote three songs and his solos are not as good as ferris or the guy who played on creatures so there is zero argument for Vinnie saving kiss.

I love Vinnie but no way saved kiss . He was a session player on creatures .

If Vinnie saved kiss how come he didn't save his own band lol and how come through out his 20s when Paul and Gene were selling millions of records was Vinnie a session player on hardly any albums ?

Kiss definitely saved Vinnie but not the other way around .

However I am not saying Vinnie wasn't amazing just totally insane to say he saved kiss on creatures. Maybe a better argument with lick it up but it's hard to really say that album saved kiss. Even with no make up novelty it was the second lowest tour attendance of the 80s.

[VVArchives]

"For the first time ever, we had outsider writers coming to help us write songs," Simmons continues.

Lol.

I guess $immons forgot that had been going on since about 1976. But Gene and the truth don't go hand in hand at all.

[VVArchives]

Vinnie had very little influence on creatures which is a better record than lick it up.
Eric Carr also definitely helped save kiss with the producer and engineer of creatures with that mammoth drum sound. Vinnie only co wrote three songs and his solos are not as good as ferris or the guy who played on creatures so there is zero argument for Vinnie saving kiss.

I love Vinnie but no way saved kiss . He was a session player on creatures .

If Vinnie saved kiss how come he didn't save his own band lol and how come through out his 20s when Paul and Gene were selling millions of records was Vinnie a session player on hardly any albums ?

Kiss definitely saved Vinnie but not the other way around .

However I am not saying Vinnie wasn't amazing just totally insane to say he saved kiss on creatures. Maybe a better argument with lick it up but it's hard to really say that album saved kiss. Even with no make up novelty it was the second lowest tour attendance of the 80s.

You don't love Vinnie. All you do is trash him on these boards and make up the craziest things about him.

Eric Carr didn't do shit for KISS. He was there for The Elder. He was there for countless Krap Kiss albums. And the drum sound is what they took away on LIU. Turned down Eric's drums. Cranked up Vinnie's guitar and look what happened.

You claim to love Vinnie but then deny he saved them even though people like Eric, Eddie Trunk, Mark Slaughter and countless others admit he did save them.

KISS didn't save Vinnie. Vinnie saved their ass. Gene was begging Vinnie to come back. Garbage albums after Vinnie left until Gene called Vinnie to save them once again.

Also, where are you getting these alleged tour figures? Fact is nobody knows what any of the tours averaged at all because not enough box scores exist. The only tour average we know for sure is the Asylum tour. We only know that because CK Lendt mentioned that tour average. He said Asylum averaged 5,000 a night. And he had access to all the data.

What you have is people taking a handful of official box scores and pretending a tiny fraction of data = tour average. It doesn't.

And the thing with the LIU Tour, KISS had to prove themselves. The "show" was gone. They had to prove it with the music alone.

Look at what happened after the huge success of LIU. Kiss was getting a ton more coverage leading up to the release of their next album.
More marketing dollars behind KISS after LIU.
Kiss was able to kick off another European tour after LIU
Kiss booked an MTV concert after LIU.

The next album was able to ship 1M copies because of LIU (LIU was at 1M US and 1.5M WW at the time).

But after the LIU momentum was gone what happened?

No European or World Tour for Asylum.

Asylum was lucky to ship 700K. That just proved what a dud Animalize was. If Animalize delivered, Asylum would have easily shipped Platinum.

Kiss was pretty lost again and on came the "2 year plan".

Only 2 songs from Animalize part of the regular set list. Even KISS knew the album was weak.


and people whine about LIU certification and COTN. The reason that certification was put off for so long because Vinnie had already sued KISS over unpaid royalties early in the LIU release. Vinnie managed to get payments stopped to KISS etc for a time. No way, the label was going to hand them audited sales receipts. Even though the label acknowledged LIU was over 1M and COTN was past 500K so much earlier than actual certification. And KISS's certification numbers are horribly screwed up. But some people falsely rely on those as the "gospel"

[VVArchives]

I would say Gene referencing Yngwie is from today, maybe seeing that article Shramiac talks about. He would not have been thinking that back in the day.

It is also in referene to the stuff they DIDN"T want Vinnie to play, not what he eventually did play, and remember, Vinnie was not all over the album and he had three songs on it.

Again for LIU Vinnie was restrained, and I like it, it fits KISS and the album is briliant. The VVI album (which I just played as my daughter and I washed her car just now) was Vinnie unrestrained, and I told my daugher this. Listen to those guitars, they are screaming!!! I love that too.

Not all fans think all those songs and albums are crap, again, I love listening to those albums too. They are not as good as LIU, but they are great KISS albums I enjoy, so you just cannot disparage someone like Adam Mitchell, or those albums because of your feelings. Animalize was more successful than LIU at the time, and it has some really cool songs. Could have had better ones, but it is what it is.

As we can see, Vinnie was not the musical director and force behind Creatures, he was writing for the style of album they were looking to do, and he played what was asked/told of him. If he was musical director then Creatures and LIU would have been as crazy as the VVI album. That would have been interesting, but the albums as they are are great KISS albums.

Again you can make false claims but that doesn't make it so.

And as usual, you want to act like Vinnie Invasion stuff is what Vinnie was doing prior to that. Even during the Animalize demos he was doing with Hirsh when Gene was calling him every day (and of course you claimed Gene and Paul fired him falsely).

You've never listed any of those great Bob Kulick songs or great Adam Mitchell songs. And where were they on LIU or even Animalize? They were non existent. Just like Bryan Adams.

Animalize wasn't way more successful at the time. They are both 2M+ in the states. Animalize rode the BIg Mo at the time.

But like I pointed out countless times....what happned next? If Animalize was so successful why did the next album stiff so bad? And they had 3 expensive music videos to promote it. MTV in probably double the number of homes then compared to when LIU released. If Animalize had been so strong, Asylum would have easily shipped platinum. They were barely lucky to do 700K initially. No European tour to kick off Asylum. No World Tour at all. Nothing.

So there goes your Animalize was huge garbage.

Yes, Vinnie was the musical director on COTN and LIU. And once again on Revenge. That's why those 3 albums are so similar. And don't bring up the drum sound nonsense again. Those 3 are so much alike because of 1 reason- Vinnie.

and some people love The Elder but that doesn't mean it wasn't a shit album that put KISS in the grave. Some people love garbage.


Maybe you should share with your daughter the Warrior demos to show her what Vinnie was really like. You keep bringing up Invasion for no reason. The demos during all that time show he wasn't doing that kind of stuff. But you keep bringing it up all the time for no reason? WHY do you do that? The musical proof is out there. We know exactly what he was doing. And Gene and Paul weren't there "restraining him".

But I guess if you admitted the truth on that, you would have to admit Vinnie was the musical director. And it seems you can't admit that fact.

[VVArchives]

Gene loves to lie and trash every good band member. Look at all the crap he has said about Ace and Peter. He's trashed them mercilessly.

He does the same to Vinnie because he wants to try and act like Vinnie's huge accomplishments in KISS really didn't happen. That it was Gene and Paul.

Odd, Gene would try then when you look at all the garbage they had put out prior to Vinnie and then after Vinnie.

And how KISS put out garbage after Vinnie until when Vinnie returned.

After Vinnie was gone again, what has KISS put out? A grunge album. A very avg Psycho Circus. Then 2 mediocre albums.

Gene's solo ASSHOLE, was abysmal. Paul's "Live To Win" had maybe 2-3 good songs.

Since 1977, the only 3 really stong KISS albums are the Vinnie albums. COTN, LIU and Revenge. That's it.

But some want to deny Vinnie and his musical direction etc for KISS.

1977-2022. And the only 3 really strong KISS albums during that time are the ones Vinnie was there for. Some want to act like that's a coincidence!

[VVArchives]

I love Vinnie but no way saved kiss . He was a session player on creatures .

How many session players get 6 of their songs recorded for the album?

How many session players write 10 or more songs for the album?

Who was playing on all those demos?

Why did Gene and Paul leave off so many of the Vinnie demos off the 40th set?

[VVArchives]

Adam did a pretty good job on the story. Just wish Adam knew more of the facts, so he could have done some great follow up questions.

I also wish he could have gotten to interview Vinnie.

Vinnie really needs to do alot of interviews now and set the record straight. He can't continue to let Gene and Paul control the narrative. When he does that, he lets their lies become the "truth" for everyone.

[Genebaby]

I love Vinnie but no way saved kiss . He was a session player on creatures .

How many session players get 6 of their songs recorded for the album?

How many session players write 10 or more songs for the album?

Who was playing on all those demos?

Why did Gene and Paul leave off so many of the Vinnie demos off the 40th set?

3 Vinnie songs were recorded for Creatures, 3. Vinnie really was the musical dirctor? Oh boy.

[VVArchives]

I love Vinnie but no way saved kiss . He was a session player on creatures .

How many session players get 6 of their songs recorded for the album?

How many session players write 10 or more songs for the album?

Who was playing on all those demos?

Why did Gene and Paul leave off so many of the Vinnie demos off the 40th set?

3 Vinnie songs were recorded for Creatures, 3. Vinnie really was the musical dirctor? Oh boy.

Of course you still want to ignore reality. You can try and piss on Vinnie's contributions all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

6 of Vinnie's songs recorded for the album.

Probably 10 or more written for the album.

Yes, you love to ignore those facts and pretend like Vinnie wasn't the driving force.


You even act like Vinnie wasn't the musical director for LIU.

You ignore Vinnie saving KISS with Revenge as well. Bring up the 3 songs on that too. Ignore the fact that he wrote with them and was in the studio with them for 9-12 months on that one. Gene admitted he and Vinnie wrote over 10 songs together for that one.

But sure, keep on saying Vinnie wasn't the guiding force. You are the same guy who "claimed" Gene and Paul were the driving force on Animalize and that they fired Vinnie instead of Vinnie walking away from KISS. We know how you are "up" on KISStory

[shramiac]

Did Vinnie kick them in the ass? For sure. But, were G & P hungry for success after a few VERY lean years? You better believe it!

Vinnie co-wrote 3 songs on CoTN and played on 6 of the songs on the album. Those are facts.

And as CoTN is arguably KISS' heaviest album, can we say Vinnie was the driving force behind this? Well. let's look at the songs he co-wrote...

I Love it Loud....A plodding anthem song (the weakest song on the album...and one I don't really care for) but KISS had already written anthem songs before. Rock and Roll All Night and Shout it out Loud. All three are staples in the KISS catalogue, with ILIL the weakest by far, of the three.

I Still Love You....a ballad! Unlike GB, I do like this song but that's the drummer in me coming out!

Killer.... a great song! Love it! NEVER played live and made no charts as a single (sadly)!


On ILIL Vinnie was only allowed to play the simplest of solos.

On ISLY, a song he wrote, he didn't even get to do the solo on it!


While stating Vinnie saved KISS is something I would like to say, the reality is that he (and Eric) definitely helped but to say they were the driving force is overstated, just like G & P's saying he was "a nothing" (so to speak) is an understatement.


Never forget that the mighty $$$$$ is a major driving force.

[Genebaby]

For me with ISLY is the drums are over the top for that type of song, a ballad, and just the lyrics. I still love you is so cliche. A Million to One, MUCH better, great lyrics.

So yeah, 3 co-writes and played on six songs. Didn't solo on ISLY, is that Paul on ILIL? Seems his style.

If Vinnie was the musical director things would have been VERY different.

He wasn't musical director ever in KISS. On LIU he had solos adjusted and replaced. And I like that album sooo much, Vinnie in KISS on a leash was good.

Vinnie on his own without a leash was also good, but it wasn't KISS either, so there is that.