Vinnie Vincent saved KISS 40 years ago

[VVArchives]

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/kiss-i-love-it-loud/

The Vinnie Vincent era of Kiss did not start quietly.

"I Love It Loud," co-written with Gene Simmons by the man then known as Vincent Cusano, was the first single released from Kiss' 1982 album Creatures of the Night and one of three he helped pen for the album. (The others were "Killer" with Simmons and "I Still Love You" with Paul Stanley.)


Read More: 40 Years Ago: Kiss Refuses to Die Quietly With 'I Love It Loud' | https://ultimateclassicrock.com/kiss-i- ... m=referral

[Genebaby]

Kudos to Mr Vincent!!!

[doublev2]

He didn't save kiss but great album.
The album and tour sold badly and resulted in them taking off make up. I would hardly call three co writing credits and some session guitar work as 'saving kiss' lol

[VVArchives]

He didn't save kiss but great album.
The album and tour sold badly and resulted in them taking off make up. I would hardly call three co writing credits and some session guitar work as 'saving kiss' lol

That's because you are a simpleton with no clue what you are talking about.


He didn't just write 3 songs. He wrote 6 songs that were recorded for the album.

He set the dramatic change in tone and direction for the album.

What's the only difference between the Killers sounding tracks and COTN? Only difference Vinnie

What 3 albums sound alike? COTN, LIU, Revenge? Why is that? Vinnie
How many songs did Vinnie write for Revenge? More than 10


First tour to actually turn a profit for KISS since 1977
Now maybe you think losing millions on Dynasty was great for KISS
Or the massive amounts lost by KISS and their record label in 1980?

Tell me how much demand (or lack thereof) for KISS in 1980 in America? None. Totally non-existent


The Elder completely tanked KISS WW. Flopped by massive proportions. Only 150K sold in the US after returns.


But according to you, KISS wasn't saved from all that. And I assume, you think KISS could have continued with an album as shitty as those 4 tracks on KILLERS?


Just think COTN sold more in Brazil alone than all the copies of "The Elder" upon initial release in the United States.

"I Love It Loud" which Vinnie did almost all the writing on, is one of the biggest songs in KISS history. It was even released as the single from the COTN 40th box set. It was also a single from COTN (one of them. Of course Vinnie's "Killer" was another). And used as KISS intro for MNF in 1984. "Lick It Up" right behind ILIL. Pretty amazing nothing prior to 1976 comes close to those.


Also, everyone loved COTN and knew KISS was headed in the right direction. Nobody comes back from being in the grave after 1 album. KISS had totally destroyed their reputation WW prior to Creatures.

The majority of fans who bought COTN and attended the tour weren't old fans. They were brand new fans.

KISS certainly squandered their return. With Vinnie going AWOL on Animalize, because they refused to give him a signable contract, KISS screwed themselves. They were able to keep riding the LIU momentum on Animalize but KISS imploded after that momentum was gone.

And KISS was lost and without direction from Animalize - Hits. That period is the forgotten years.

Kiss sunk so far with the dismal sales of Hot In The Shade, they had to call back VInnie for Revenge.


But sure, try and deny Vinnie saved KISS.

[Genebaby]

Again, the songs on Killers aren't shitty. You only think so. I love them as do many others.

Second. Vinnie did not set the tone for the album, he only participated in the direction KISS were now going in by their own decision, as a direct about turn to what The Elder represented and was. A hired gun does not get to set the tone for the record, he does what he's asked and goes along with it. Had Vinnie joined in 1980 Unmasked would still be the pop album that we know and love. KISS chose to be heavy for Creatues, not Vinnie.

Lick It Up sounds nothing like Creatures and again, that was a choice KISS made. Gene was asked why they didn't use the same sound on LIU, with the drums etc. He replied, very business like, that Creatures didn't sell well so they did something different with LIU. I actually prefer the LIU production, it's more balanced and molten metal sounding, to me.

[VVArchives]

Again, the songs on Killers aren't shitty. You only think so. I love them as do many others.

Second. Vinnie did not set the tone for the album, he only participated in the direction KISS were now going in by their own decision, as a direct about turn to what The Elder represented and was. A hired gun does not get to set the tone for the record, he does what he's asked and goes along with it. Had Vinnie joined in 1980 Unmasked would still be the pop album that we know and love. KISS chose to be heavy for Creatues, not Vinnie.

Lick It Up sounds nothing like Creatures and again, that was a choice KISS made. Gene was asked why they didn't use the same sound on LIU, with the drums etc. He replied, very business like, that Creatures didn't sell well so they did something different with LIU. I actually prefer the LIU production, it's more balanced and molten metal sounding, to me.

You're completely wrong on every point.
Hardly anyone bought Killers. Even Paul admit those songs suck and he wrote them and he has a huge ego.

Yes, Vinnie did set the tone and direction of the album without question. Its the songwriting that dictates the tone and direction. Even Vini Ponci admits that.

You act like he was just some hired gun instead of the main songwriter. 6 of his songs were recorded for the album. Who knows how many were rejected.

Hell, KISS tried to make a heavy rock album with Ezrin in 1981. They got nowehere. That's why they were forced to do a shitty concept album. Nobody was there to take them in that direction.

Had Vinnie been there for Unmasked, you would have seen a Hard Rock/Metal KISS for sure because he would have been the main songwriter like he is on every KISS album he was involved in.

Lick It Up does sound like Creatures except one thing. They dropped the drums down and cranked up Vinnie's guitar.

and when they remixed COTN songs for the Unmasked cover... what did they do? Drums down, guitars up!

[Genebaby]

I don't care what Paul thinks of those songs, they are awesome and we listen to them a lot in my house and cars. The Elder is not as bad as Paul thinks, he just knows it tanked his career.

Vini Poncia admitted that the songs dictate the tone? Tell that to Bruce Kulick who doesn't recognise the hard and heavy song he wrote with Gene that turned into Naked City on Unmasked. It's the only version I know so I like it but Bob's vision was much heavier. Vinnie popped it up.

KISS weren't getting nowhere with the 1981 hard rock album, they were just stupid in thinking that wasn't going to be enough to fix their issues, and that they needed to make a muscial statement, something more than just great rock songs. We all know how that turned out for their career.

[VVArchives]

I don't care what Paul thinks of those songs, they are awesome and we listen to them a lot in my house and cars. The Elder is not as bad as Paul thinks, he just knows it tanked his career.

Vini Poncia admitted that the songs dictate the tone? Tell that to Bruce Kulick who doesn't recognise the hard and heavy song he wrote with Gene that turned into Naked City on Unmasked. It's the only version I know so I like it but Bob's vision was much heavier. Vinnie popped it up.

KISS weren't getting nowhere with the 1981 hard rock album, they were just stupid in thinking that wasn't going to be enough to fix their issues, and that they needed to make a muscial statement, something more than just great rock songs. We all know how that turned out for their career.

It doesn't matter if you like something or not. The public hated Unmasked and Paul calls it wimpy. He's right. The public really hated The Elder. The public didn't give 2 shits about the 4 throw away tracks on "Killers".

The public didn't care about Hot In The Shade either or most of their other KISS albums Animalize-Hits.

The songwriting dictates the direction of the album. Yes. And Paul and Ace were writing wimpy pop songs pretty much. That's the way the album went. Bob Kulick (1 of 4 writers) on that song doesn't determine the direction of the album. They changed the song to fit in line with the direction they were going. Also, Bob was just pissed because he didn't get to do the solo for it Ace did. And he trashed Ace's playing.


Ezin has talked about them not getting anywhere with the hard rock album they tried. They couldn't write it. They tried. They failed.

If you want to talk about Bob Kulick talk how frustrated, he was on Killers. Gene and Paul were looking to him for direction. Nothing he was doing was good enough. They were lost and didn't know what they wanted. Gene and Paul were having a tug of war which way to go. None of Bob's solo's were good enough.

Thank goodness Vinnie came in....wrote a ton of songs. 6 of which got recorded for the album. And he set the tone/direction for that album with his songwriting because neither Gene nor Paul or MJJ knew which direction to go.

And for you to act like COTN doesn't sound like LIU. My goodness. All LIU is is a better version of COTN because Eric's drums are down and Vinnie's guitars are cranked and Vinnie was a guitar god.

[Genebaby]

The public in the USA wasn't enamoured with Unmasked, but wordwide it was a big deal. Paul doesn't like a lot of things the fans like, which is fine, but he did them. Killers wasn't even released in the US, so again, it's a ROW (Rest Of World) thing that you might not understand.

The public sure did care about Animalize. Their first album in the top 20 for years, it was a more successful album than anything so far in the 80's, in the US. You can't argue that and Gene and Paul, yes, they saw the business side and decided that the decsion to cut Vinnie loose, rather than grow and expand on the excellence of the previous, smaller selling albums, was a good one and that they could do this with another guitarist who could play in an modern style.

That doesn't mean they were as good as COTN and LIU, but they weren't crap.

They did some cool demos of the rock album, they did not fail, they changed direction, on purpose.

[Luxor]

Actually, Lick It Up was a top 20 album according to Cashbox.

It was close in Billboard. But its not like Billboard or Cashbox were accurate at all back then.

[Genebaby]

I'm not sure on that, Animalize was top 20 and was a big deal at the time. I don't think LIU reached into the top 20.

[VVArchives]

I'm not sure on that, Animalize was top 20 and was a big deal at the time. I don't think LIU reached into the top 20.

Lick It Up was #19 on Cashbox for 2 weeks
11-19-1983
11-26-1983

Animalize peaked on Cashbox at #19. It was there 2 weeks
11-3-1984
11-19-1984

[VVArchives]

The public in the USA wasn't enamoured with Unmasked, but wordwide it was a big deal. Paul doesn't like a lot of things the fans like, which is fine, but he did them. Killers wasn't even released in the US, so again, it's a ROW (Rest Of World) thing that you might not understand.

The public sure did care about Animalize. Their first album in the top 20 for years, it was a more successful album than anything so far in the 80's, in the US. You can't argue that and Gene and Paul, yes, they saw the business side and decided that the decsion to cut Vinnie loose, rather than grow and expand on the excellence of the previous, smaller selling albums, was a good one and that they could do this with another guitarist who could play in an modern style.

That doesn't mean they were as good as COTN and LIU, but they weren't crap.

They did some cool demos of the rock album, they did not fail, they changed direction, on purpose.

It wasn't a big deal. It did well in some countries.

Killers did come out in the US. It was very easy to get. And it doesn't matter because those songs sucked and had Kiss taken off the makeup and released garbage like that they most likely would have been finished. I doubt their label would have signed them to a new deal putting out crap like that.

Why did Animalize sell? Pretty easy, the strength of Lick It Up and COTN prior to it. All one has to do is look at the huge amount of press difference between LIU and Animalize. There was tremendous anticipation for the follow up to Lick It Up.

What did MJJ say? Animalize Capitalized On The Momentum of Creatures Of The Night and Lick It Up.

That is so true.

Wanna know how we know Animalize was riding LIU's wave? Easy.

They shipped 1M copies of Animalize because of the strength of Lick It Up.

If Animalize was well liked, they would have easily been able to ship much more than that with the next album. But they couldn't. They shipped less than half of that to kick off Asylum.

People figured out Animalize wasn't near COTN and LIU. It was an album with a few good songs and mostly filler.

More successful? Both LIU and Animalize 2m+ in the US. Its not like it did 4M or something.


And Gene and Paul didn't cut Vinnie loose. He left them. Gene called everyday trying to get him back. But you keep saying that same nonsense that Gene and Paul cut him loose. It makes no sense for you to keep saying that same false claims.

[Genebaby]

Gene called every day? Were you there with Vinnie when this happened?

Paul and Gene were businessmen by then, they didn't see Vinnie the same way we do. He was there at the right time and became the default choice but they weren't going to lose sleep at that point. They were done with him and they were looking for the next guy.

[doublev2]

The public in the USA wasn't enamoured with Unmasked, but wordwide it was a big deal. Paul doesn't like a lot of things the fans like, which is fine, but he did them. Killers wasn't even released in the US, so again, it's a ROW (Rest Of World) thing that you might not understand.

The public sure did care about Animalize. Their first album in the top 20 for years, it was a more successful album than anything so far in the 80's, in the US. You can't argue that and Gene and Paul, yes, they saw the business side and decided that the decsion to cut Vinnie loose, rather than grow and expand on the excellence of the previous, smaller selling albums, was a good one and that they could do this with another guitarist who could play in an modern style.

That doesn't mean they were as good as COTN and LIU, but they weren't crap.

They did some cool demos of the rock album, they did not fail, they changed direction, on purpose.

It wasn't a big deal. It did well in some countries.

Killers did come out in the US. It was very easy to get. And it doesn't matter because those songs sucked and had Kiss taken off the makeup and released garbage like that they most likely would have been finished. I doubt their label would have signed them to a new deal putting out crap like that.

Why did Animalize sell? Pretty easy, the strength of Lick It Up and COTN prior to it. All one has to do is look at the huge amount of press difference between LIU and Animalize. There was tremendous anticipation for the follow up to Lick It Up.

What did MJJ say? Animalize Capitalized On The Momentum of Creatures Of The Night and Lick It Up.

That is so true.

Wanna know how we know Animalize was riding LIU's wave? Easy.

They shipped 1M copies of Animalize because of the strength of Lick It Up.

If Animalize was well liked, they would have easily been able to ship much more than that with the next album. But they couldn't. They shipped less than half of that to kick off Asylum.

People figured out Animalize wasn't near COTN and LIU. It was an album with a few good songs and mostly filler.

More successful? Both LIU and Animalize 2m+ in the US. Its not like it did 4M or something.


And Gene and Paul didn't cut Vinnie loose. He left them. Gene called everyday trying to get him back. But you keep saying that same nonsense that Gene and Paul cut him loose. It makes no sense for you to keep saying that same false claims.

Hysterical. Lick it up was low attendance tour . What momentum ? And hahaahahaha you really think there was a tremendous anticipation about the follow up to lick it up? Hahahahahhahaahahaa
Animalize is a mystery to me but heavens on fire was big on MTV...way way way bigger than lick it up and all he'll breaking loose.
Lick it up appeared to get kiss in right direction for sure but ... you are living in another world

[Genebaby]

Yes, Heaven's on Fire got KISS noticed even in Australia, where we had dropped KISS like a hot potato and they were considered uncool.

I remember seeing them on Countdown, no makeup, new guitar player and cool new song.

It literally got me interested in KISS again and I found my Unmasked tape and began playing it again. I dug the new song too.

There used to be more of this where they talked with Mark for a tiny bit but here is what I can find today.

[VVArchives]

Gene called every day? Were you there with Vinnie when this happened?

Paul and Gene were businessmen by then, they didn't see Vinnie the same way we do. He was there at the right time and became the default choice but they weren't going to lose sleep at that point. They were done with him and they were looking for the next guy.

Glad you admitted now that this statement is completely false. And that Gene was calling and begging Vinnie to return everday while Hisch & Vinnie were working in the studio for 3-5 months on all those songs.

That reality, changes the dynamics completely. And we know Gene was desperate and Animalize could have been a great album....instead it was mediocre. And they barely played anything from it live in the regular set list. Huge drop off from the LIU tour when they were supporting that album.

[Genebaby]

It was me that didn't remember/know about the phone calls. Dino remembers things way better than me, as do many of the other "Forum Elders".

I do find it amazing, because as much as the original members were great for the band in general, the Unmasking thrust them into the 80's glam rock spotlight and Ace and Peter weren't gonna look as cool as the other guys.

Plus, if ever there is mention that Ace would come back I can only think that Ace cannot play the new stuff. Maybe some of the Creatures songs, maybe, but not LIU, it's not his style and out of his league. I thought this way when GnR did Chinese Democacy. I'm like, man, with the guitarwork on this you can't just get any old guys to play it live if you need new band members.

So I'm not sure what getting Ace back once he had left and the new songs were more technically challenging could hope to acheive. They need a good, responsible guitar player, yes, but he needed skills Ace didn't have.

Still to this day I also think Tommy is out of his depth when they do certain 80's songs, and there are some they just could never do. Paul can't sing them and he maybe can't play them.

[VVArchives]

The public in the USA wasn't enamoured with Unmasked, but wordwide it was a big deal. Paul doesn't like a lot of things the fans like, which is fine, but he did them. Killers wasn't even released in the US, so again, it's a ROW (Rest Of World) thing that you might not understand.

The public sure did care about Animalize. Their first album in the top 20 for years, it was a more successful album than anything so far in the 80's, in the US. You can't argue that and Gene and Paul, yes, they saw the business side and decided that the decsion to cut Vinnie loose, rather than grow and expand on the excellence of the previous, smaller selling albums, was a good one and that they could do this with another guitarist who could play in an modern style.

That doesn't mean they were as good as COTN and LIU, but they weren't crap.

They did some cool demos of the rock album, they did not fail, they changed direction, on purpose.

It wasn't a big deal. It did well in some countries.

Killers did come out in the US. It was very easy to get. And it doesn't matter because those songs sucked and had Kiss taken off the makeup and released garbage like that they most likely would have been finished. I doubt their label would have signed them to a new deal putting out crap like that.

Why did Animalize sell? Pretty easy, the strength of Lick It Up and COTN prior to it. All one has to do is look at the huge amount of press difference between LIU and Animalize. There was tremendous anticipation for the follow up to Lick It Up.

What did MJJ say? Animalize Capitalized On The Momentum of Creatures Of The Night and Lick It Up.

That is so true.

Wanna know how we know Animalize was riding LIU's wave? Easy.

They shipped 1M copies of Animalize because of the strength of Lick It Up.

If Animalize was well liked, they would have easily been able to ship much more than that with the next album. But they couldn't. They shipped less than half of that to kick off Asylum.

People figured out Animalize wasn't near COTN and LIU. It was an album with a few good songs and mostly filler.

More successful? Both LIU and Animalize 2m+ in the US. Its not like it did 4M or something.


And Gene and Paul didn't cut Vinnie loose. He left them. Gene called everyday trying to get him back. But you keep saying that same nonsense that Gene and Paul cut him loose. It makes no sense for you to keep saying that same false claims.

Hysterical. Lick it up was low attendance tour . What momentum ? And hahaahahaha you really think there was a tremendous anticipation about the follow up to lick it up? Hahahahahhahaahahaa
Animalize is a mystery to me but heavens on fire was big on MTV...way way way bigger than lick it up and all he'll breaking loose.
Lick it up appeared to get kiss in right direction for sure but ... you are living in another world

HOF was not big on MTV. But since you made that claim, you should be able to back it up. But you can't. Because you can't back up any of your statements. Because they are fiction.

I know how each of them did. I know how many weeks of rotation each had and at what levels.

You also mock AHBL. A song that was in rotation one less week than HOF. Funny, you don't mention Thrills which could only manage 6 weeks in light rotation.


Lick It Up as pointed out in Kerrang was at 1M in the US and 1.5M WW prior to Animalize's release and you are asking "what momentum"? Even Michael James Jackson said it was because of COTN and LIU. And I've posted that quote in here. But reality and facts never seem to matter to you. You seem to think your opinion trumps facts. Trumps reality.

[VVArchives]

It was me that didn't remember/know about the phone calls. Dino remembers things way better than me, as do many of the other "Forum Elders".

I do find it amazing, because as much as the original members were great for the band in general, the Unmasking thrust them into the 80's glam rock spotlight and Ace and Peter weren't gonna look as cool as the other guys.

Plus, if ever there is mention that Ace would come back I can only think that Ace cannot play the new stuff. Maybe some of the Creatures songs, maybe, but not LIU, it's not his style and out of his league. I thought this way when GnR did Chinese Democacy. I'm like, man, with the guitarwork on this you can't just get any old guys to play it live if you need new band members.

So I'm not sure what getting Ace back once he had left and the new songs were more technically challenging could hope to acheive. They need a good, responsible guitar player, yes, but he needed skills Ace didn't have.

Still to this day I also think Tommy is out of his depth when they do certain 80's songs, and there are some they just could never do. Paul can't sing them and he maybe can't play them.

I hope Dino isn't the Double V guy? Is he?

Because Dino took proof of Hirsch Gardner talking about he and Vinnie working together for 3-5 months and this was after the LIU tour had ended. And yet that guy tried to change reality and "claim" (falsely of course) Hirsh and Vinnie were working together after the end of the European LIU tour and before the North American leg which is completely false. And that would change everything. Its one thing for Gene to be begging Vinnie to return after the end of the LIU NA Leg (which is what happened). That changes things dramatically because Gene and Paul have lied constantly VInnie was fired right after the LIU tour ended in America. Completely false. Their egos can't handle they were begging him to return and they didn't let him go until late June/early July in 1984. A long way from that last LIU date.



and I would love to see where Ace coming back on LIU came from? Of course, you aren't asking for him to provide any proof or anything of that. Did Dale Sherman cover that? Julian Gill, Greg Prato? Where is that coming from at all.


Maybe you can explain to DIno since he obviously didn't listen to Hirsh that he was talking about after April 1984. Not December 1983.

[doublev2]

It was me that didn't remember/know about the phone calls. Dino remembers things way better than me, as do many of the other "Forum Elders".

I do find it amazing, because as much as the original members were great for the band in general, the Unmasking thrust them into the 80's glam rock spotlight and Ace and Peter weren't gonna look as cool as the other guys.

Plus, if ever there is mention that Ace would come back I can only think that Ace cannot play the new stuff. Maybe some of the Creatures songs, maybe, but not LIU, it's not his style and out of his league. I thought this way when GnR did Chinese Democacy. I'm like, man, with the guitarwork on this you can't just get any old guys to play it live if you need new band members.

So I'm not sure what getting Ace back once he had left and the new songs were more technically challenging could hope to acheive. They need a good, responsible guitar player, yes, but he needed skills Ace didn't have.

Still to this day I also think Tommy is out of his depth when they do certain 80's songs, and there are some they just could never do. Paul can't sing them and he maybe can't play them.

I hope Dino isn't the Double V guy? Is he?

Because Dino took proof of Hirsch Gardner talking about he and Vinnie working together for 3-5 months and this was after the LIU tour had ended. And yet that guy tried to change reality and "claim" (falsely of course) Hirsh and Vinnie were working together after the end of the European LIU tour and before the North American leg which is completely false. And that would change everything. Its one thing for Gene to be begging Vinnie to return after the end of the LIU NA Leg (which is what happened). That changes things dramatically because Gene and Paul have lied constantly VInnie was fired right after the LIU tour ended in America. Completely false. Their egos can't handle they were begging him to return and they didn't let him go until late June/early July in 1984. A long way from that last LIU date.



and I would love to see where Ace coming back on LIU came from? Of course, you aren't asking for him to provide any proof or anything of that. Did Dale Sherman cover that? Julian Gill, Greg Prato? Where is that coming from at all.


Maybe you can explain to DIno since he obviously didn't listen to Hirsh that he was talking about after April 1984. Not December 1983.

Ace is a better guitar player than Vinnie at the present time.

[Genebaby]

Oh, there is a veritable crap ton of people who are now better guitar players than Vinnie these days.

Heck, even I'm a better guitar player than Vinnie these days.

[doublev2]

Yeah unfortunately Vinnie wasn't great live but maybe he can get better

[Genebaby]

Hey, practice makes perfect!!!!

[Luxor]

I think many would disagree. Vinnie was a great performer live. He certainly had the best stage presence of any KISS guitarist.

[Genebaby]

I think we are talking about today. He was great back in the day for sure.

[doublev2]

Talking about now. Obviously stage presence is a matter of taste . I saw vinnie live a few times. I don't know to be honest if he had the stage presence of gene and Paul two of the biggest stage presences in history but that's Obviously for each person to decide .

I think many would disagree. Vinnie was a great performer live. He certainly had the best stage presence of any KISS guitarist.