The KISS contract from Hell / Vinnie's KISS contract

[VVArchives]

It's obvious some around here have no idea how terrible the KISS contract that Vinnie refused to sign was. Well, here it is.
http://tcarsc.blogspot.com/2011/12/288-lick-it-up.html


Also, you have to keep in mind, the salary dropped from $2000 a week down to $1000 a week after the LIU tour. That was true of Vinnie and Eric Carr.

Upon signing, Vinnie would give away all his publishing to KISS. All the songs he wrote prior to, KISS would own. All the songs he wrote while in KISS, KISS would own.

Kiss would own Vinnie's likeness.

Vinnie could never appear in his ankh makeup after he left or mention the band name.

If Vinnie did a solo record, guess who gets the bulk of the money?

You name it, KISS screws ya.

And this is pretty much what Carr, St. John and Bruce signed off on. But for them it would not be as horrible of a deal. Vinnie had already had 2 singles off COTN. He had 2 singles off LIU. LIU featured 8 of his songs. Vinnie was in a totally different league than those guys.


Had KISS offered him a fair deal where Vinnie didn't have to give away all his publishing to all his songs. Put him back to $2000 a week salary. Treated him with some respect.

Read the "Contract From Hell" and then think of Gene lying his butt off about Vinnie being offered "the keys to the kingdom".


But at least Vinnie put all the torture Gene and Paul put on him to good use. The song "Twisted" is about his time with them and them trying to manipulate and force him to sign his life away.

Lyrics
Aliens have landed, in my mind they stay
I've been damned, I never see the light of day
(Declared insane and locked away)
I'm so confused, I'm drowning in a sea of haze
My mind is numb, I'm overdosed, I'm D.O.A
Stand accused on judgement day
I feel my mind disintegrate in blistering pain
Melting me and sucking me right down the drain

Twisted... In is out and 6 is 9
Twisted... I think I'm gonna lose my mind
Twisted... A spider's running up my spine

I'm going blind
Life's a blur, one things for sure
It hurts my brain
I've been cursed
I don't even know my name
I'm twisted like a hurricane
Once so young and innocent and right as rain
Blood has turned as cold as steel
Ice fills my veins
I've had my fill of all the pain
A million voices thundering inside my brain
No victory to claim
My state of mind remains

[Genebaby]

Wow, that's amazing. I don't think anyone here has seen the full contract and it's terms.

I do remember when Vinnie had left and was doing interviews for VVI he would not say KISS, it was the "blank" band or the "white face band", but later he would say it like normal and that was forgotten.

He was also playing Lick It Up during the VVI days, something that was forbidden?

All in all, not great that you have so many restrictions, let alone things prior to joining? That doesn't make sense.

It's fully normal that if you produce something while working for someone as an employee they do own it, so essentially, if some of the other stuff wasn't there then Vinnie was basically being paid to write songs for KISS and perform them with them and appear to promote the band as required, which wasn't bad at 2k or1k a week.

KISS themselves were not flush with cash and it was always the other guys who suffered. They reduced Bruce's salary for a year one time, probably Eric's as well, and put it back as promised.

Some bad stuff there, but the reason KISS still does exist, then and now, is Paul and Gene, they own the name and they kept the flame burning.

I wonder how much they knew about the ins and outs of that contract, and if Eric's was similar? How about Mark and Bruce?

[shramiac]

Wowsers!

Great post, thanks VVA!

[VVArchives]

Wow, that's amazing. I don't think anyone here has seen the full contract and it's terms.

I do remember when Vinnie had left and was doing interviews for VVI he would not say KISS, it was the "blank" band or the "white face band", but later he would say it like normal and that was forgotten.

He was also playing Lick It Up during the VVI days, something that was forbidden?

All in all, not great that you have so many restrictions, let alone things prior to joining? That doesn't make sense.

It's fully normal that if you produce something while working for someone as an employee they do own it, so essentially, if some of the other stuff wasn't there then Vinnie was basically being paid to write songs for KISS and perform them with them and appear to promote the band as required, which wasn't bad at 2k or1k a week.

KISS themselves were not flush with cash and it was always the other guys who suffered. They reduced Bruce's salary for a year one time, probably Eric's as well, and put it back as promised.

Some bad stuff there, but the reason KISS still does exist, then and now, is Paul and Gene, they own the name and they kept the flame burning.

I wonder how much they knew about the ins and outs of that contract, and if Eric's was similar? How about Mark and Bruce?

I think that was just mocking KISS. He had not signed the contract so he was under no obligation. I think KISS did send a cease and desist when Chrysalis put out one of the B&W ads for Invasion. They totally screwed up (which is the norm for Chrysalis) and used the KISS TM'd logo when saying, "Former Member of KISS Goes AWOL".


Yes, sometime it is the norm to keep "work product". But when you do that you pay them an excellent salary to make up for it. They offered Vinnie a double wammy. We cut you down from $2000 a week to $1000 a week and oh yeah, we'll own 100% of your publishing on top of that.

If they wanted to take his publishing (not to mention all the publishing prior to that) then they should have been paying him $250-$400K a year.

Remember Eric, Mark and Bruce had no real songwriting experience when they signed those deals. Vinnie, on the other hand had written numerous songs. On top of that, Tears was used on Peter's album. So by the time COTN was over, what was it 6 or 7 songs would have been recorded for Peter/KISS. Granted all of them weren't put out on the album (COTN). Still 4 of those made it on Peter/COTN. But they had thought enough of the others to have recorded 7. Then you look at LIU and there's 7 songs. And then Gene used another Vinnie song on Wendy O Williams "WOW".

I doubt any other co-writer came close to the number of songs in that short amount of time. Metal Mike or the Kiss Historian should have asked Gene how much money they were out by not having Vinnie. Kiss lost millions not having Vinnie. Not only in terms of album sales but royalties as well. Go look at all the co-writers on Animalize-Revenge. Except for Bruce and Carr, everyone else is getting Publishing & Songwriting royalties. And when alot of those songs took 3 and many 4 co-writers. That pie is really cut up. In their zeal to save pennies, they lost out on quarters or dollars.

Kiss should have said. Forget that contract. We'll pay you $2000 a week. You get your full Publishing & Songwriting. You keep all your previous songs. You can get outside endorsement deals. You must sign up for a minimum of 3 years. If you leave or are fired for cause, you can't put out any music for 2 years. You also agree never to appear in the KISS costume (unless its a KISS event). Any new songs he writes, they must first be offered to KISS. If someone else records them, then G&P get a cut of the royalties. Had it been a common sense contract like that. One good for both sides, I think they could have put out at least 3-4 more albums together during the 80's. And I think they all would have been multi-platinum (back in the day) Not taking 10-15+ years to hit those sales/shipments.

[VVArchives]

KISS themselves were not flush with cash and it was always the other guys who suffered. They reduced Bruce's salary for a year one time, probably Eric's as well, and put it back as promised.

But at the time their salaries got reduced, were they getting paid $1000 a week or $2000 a week? The first wave of salary reductions came in probably late 1983 or early 1984. That would be after the renegotiated their record deal since Ace leaving voided the old one.

But one wonders if Bruce/Eric had to take a further reduction. My guess would be sometime mid 1988 to mid 1989. I would think after the Crazy Nights tour ended and KISS wasn't doing much. And then once Kiss sold their songs in late 1989, they would have had the extra cash to push the salaries back to their previous level.

They might have done it between the gap in Asylum and Crazy Nights. I don't think I've ever seen it specified. But it would make sense to cut their salaries when they were just sitting at home vegging out.

[Genebaby]

Bruce mentioned it somewhere that he was asked to take a cut, he agreed and they put it back when they promised they would. By the early 90's things were tough, Bruce and Eric Singer lost their per diem. They were already eating with the crew and saving their per diem each day, but then they were taken away.

I think the pay cut was in the 80s.

[Genebaby]

Wow, that's amazing. I don't think anyone here has seen the full contract and it's terms.

I do remember when Vinnie had left and was doing interviews for VVI he would not say KISS, it was the "blank" band or the "white face band", but later he would say it like normal and that was forgotten.

He was also playing Lick It Up during the VVI days, something that was forbidden?

All in all, not great that you have so many restrictions, let alone things prior to joining? That doesn't make sense.

It's fully normal that if you produce something while working for someone as an employee they do own it, so essentially, if some of the other stuff wasn't there then Vinnie was basically being paid to write songs for KISS and perform them with them and appear to promote the band as required, which wasn't bad at 2k or1k a week.

KISS themselves were not flush with cash and it was always the other guys who suffered. They reduced Bruce's salary for a year one time, probably Eric's as well, and put it back as promised.

Some bad stuff there, but the reason KISS still does exist, then and now, is Paul and Gene, they own the name and they kept the flame burning.

I wonder how much they knew about the ins and outs of that contract, and if Eric's was similar? How about Mark and Bruce?

I think that was just mocking KISS. He had not signed the contract so he was under no obligation. I think KISS did send a cease and desist when Chrysalis put out one of the B&W ads for Invasion. They totally screwed up (which is the norm for Chrysalis) and used the KISS TM'd logo when saying, "Former Member of KISS Goes AWOL".


Yes, sometime it is the norm to keep "work product". But when you do that you pay them an excellent salary to make up for it. They offered Vinnie a double wammy. We cut you down from $2000 a week to $1000 a week and oh yeah, we'll own 100% of your publishing on top of that.

If they wanted to take his publishing (not to mention all the publishing prior to that) then they should have been paying him $250-$400K a year.

Remember Eric, Mark and Bruce had no real songwriting experience when they signed those deals. Vinnie, on the other hand had written numerous songs. On top of that, Tears was used on Peter's album. So by the time COTN was over, what was it 6 or 7 songs would have been recorded for Peter/KISS. Granted all of them weren't put out on the album (COTN). Still 4 of those made it on Peter/COTN. But they had thought enough of the others to have recorded 7. Then you look at LIU and there's 7 songs. And then Gene used another Vinnie song on Wendy O Williams "WOW".

I doubt any other co-writer came close to the number of songs in that short amount of time. Metal Mike or the Kiss Historian should have asked Gene how much money they were out by not having Vinnie. Kiss lost millions not having Vinnie. Not only in terms of album sales but royalties as well. Go look at all the co-writers on Animalize-Revenge. Except for Bruce and Carr, everyone else is getting Publishing & Songwriting royalties. And when alot of those songs took 3 and many 4 co-writers. That pie is really cut up. In their zeal to save pennies, they lost out on quarters or dollars.

Kiss should have said. Forget that contract. We'll pay you $2000 a week. You get your full Publishing & Songwriting. You keep all your previous songs. You can get outside endorsement deals. You must sign up for a minimum of 3 years. If you leave or are fired for cause, you can't put out any music for 2 years. You also agree never to appear in the KISS costume (unless its a KISS event). Any new songs he writes, they must first be offered to KISS. If someone else records them, then G&P get a cut of the royalties. Had it been a common sense contract like that. One good for both sides, I think they could have put out at least 3-4 more albums together during the 80's. And I think they all would have been multi-platinum (back in the day) Not taking 10-15+ years to hit those sales/shipments.

It certainly sounds like a crazy contract, and you scratch your head at what they were thinking, same way as we do about Vinnie's current pricing tactics.

People who discover or invent amazing things do it on standard wages, they don't get paid massive $$$, they just do what they do on work time with work facilities and the company they work for gets the fortune and fame. There's no way Vinnie could get $$$ like 250K or more in return for future songs that may work out or not. Plenty wrong with the contract as written, but an employee is an employee.

I'm not sure if Vinnie's songwriting prowess, great as it was we now know, was forefront on Gene and Paul's mind. They needed a guitar player, who could sing and if he writes, bonus, but there a lot of people to write with and they moved on without a second thought as by now the KISS machine was a business and there was no time for affairs of the heart in regards to people. If they aren't working out, cut 'em loose and move on. They did and probably didn't care. We wish it was different though.

[doublev2]

That's a standard contract for a unknown musician joining an established band . They have to do this in music industry is dog eat dog . One lawyer will exploit and contract weakness and kiss would have a lot to lose seen as they seemed on their way out at the time . Also the contracts are usually stricter in first draft and they negotiate between lawyer depending on how desperate the band is to have the musician join.. it was probably kiss trying to be cheap and eventually they didn't want vv enough to pay him more. I guess Eric Carr in same boat ?

[VVArchives]

Bruce mentioned it somewhere that he was asked to take a cut, he agreed and they put it back when they promised they would. By the early 90's things were tough, Bruce and Eric Singer lost their per diem. They were already eating with the crew and saving their per diem each day, but then they were taken away.

I think the pay cut was in the 80s.

They lost their per diem on the HITS tour or Revenge tour? Gene and Paul must have really been scrapping by at that time.
Was that on an interview with Bruce or something? I'd love to read or listen to that.

Just goes to show yet again, how they blew it by not giving Vinnie a fair contract. They couldn't sell jack. All their wasted years, trying to save a little cost them so much money its unbelievable.

[VVArchives]

People who discover or invent amazing things do it on standard wages, they don't get paid massive $$$, they just do what they do on work time with work facilities and the company they work for gets the fortune and fame. There's no way Vinnie could get $$$ like 250K or more in return for future songs that may work out or not. Plenty wrong with the contract as written, but an employee is an employee.

I'm not sure if Vinnie's songwriting prowess, great as it was we now know, was forefront on Gene and Paul's mind. They needed a guitar player, who could sing and if he writes, bonus, but there a lot of people to write with and they moved on without a second thought as by now the KISS machine was a business and there was no time for affairs of the heart in regards to people. If they aren't working out, cut 'em loose and move on. They did and probably didn't care. We wish it was different though.

That's ridiculous. Paying him $150K (for full rights to his publishing) would have been nothing on top of his $2000 a week salary.

You keep acting like this was a contract offered to Vinnie before he even wrote one song with Gene and Paul.

Vinnie had more than showed his prowess.

Tears (for Peter Criss album)
COTN (recorded) I Love It Loud, Killer, I Still Love You. (the first two were singles). ISLY was a highlight of the COTN show.
Also recorded: Back On The Streets, Betrayed, Not For The Innocent.

There's 7 songs they know about before LIU

LIU: 8 songs that made the album. There might have been a few others that didn't make it.

Also recorded in 1983 for Wendy O Williams WOW (Gene producing) another Vinnie song "Ain't None Of Your Business"

So KISS knew about all those songs. They knew about the songs he was already working on for their 1984 album. But instead of being smart and tearing up the old deal and offering him a new one they blew it.

I still don't get why Gene didn't tell Paul to screw off and they would offer Vinnie a fair deal. Gene wanted Vinnie back. Vinnie just went AWOL from the KISS Army.

And paying Vinnie $150K for the full publishing (each album) would have been a very wise investment for Gene and Paul. They would have gotten the works cheap had they done that.

But as usual, Gene and Paul think small and they were broke pretty much from 1982-till the reunion. They sure are amazing businessmen (in their own minds).

[VVArchives]

Lets look at Animalize. How much publishing did they give up?

1. Paul Stanley, Desmond Child Stanley 3:52
2. "Heaven's on Fire" Stanley, Child Stanley 3:21
3. "Burn Bitch Burn" Gene Simmons Simmons 4:42
4. "Get All You Can Take" Stanley, Mitch Weissman Stanley 3:44
5. "Lonely Is the Hunter" Simmons Simmons 4:28
Side twoNo. Title Writer(s) Lead vocals Length
6. "Under the Gun" Stanley, Eric Carr, Child Stanley 4:01
7. "Thrills in the Night" Stanley, Jean Beauvoir Stanley 4:21
8. "While the City Sleeps" Simmons, Weissman Simmons 3:41
9. "Murder in High-Heels" Simmons, Weissman

1. 50% of publishing to Desmond
2. 50% of publishing to Desmond
3. Gene keeps 100%
4. 50% of publishing to Weissman
5. Gene keeps 100%
6. 1/3 of publishing to Desmond
7. 50% of publishing to Beauvoir
8. 50% of publishing to Weissman
9. 50% of publishing to Weissman

So they didn't save jack at all and ended up with mostly filler.


Asylum is just as bad. When it comes to paying out royalties and the filler is worse.


And then it even gets much worse on Crazy Nights.

My Way the royalties are split 3 days
Good Girl Gone bad another 3 way split
And on 5 of the songs the songwriting royalties are split 3 ways.

In Gene and Paul's greed, they cost themselves tremendously. Vinnie was offering them the keys to the kingdom and they blew it.
And they still had to return to Vinnie in 1991 and of course once again, they weren't smart enough to use all 9-10 songs of his for Revenge. Put him in the group and pay him a fair wage.

[Genebaby]

Gene and Paul don't see things the way we do, it really didn't matter who was playing guitar as long as they were 80's enough, and a lot would have to do with Paul really, really, really not liking Vinnie.

If Paul thought Vinnie was a great guy I'm sure things could have been different.

[fullshredder]

This fucking angers me, the absolute greediness of a band like this, I was a huge Kiss fan, have been for 45 years, VV basically came along and got them out of the shit they were in in the 80s, with great songs, and kiss fucking knew that, but what do they do? They basically take the piss and exploit him, that contract should never have been signed, total bullshit legally. tThe absolute talent of VV's songwriting saved Kiss for a few years anyway.

[shramiac]

$1000/week is worth $1900/week in today's value....hardly "rockstar" wages. Mine workers get that easily for just turning the wheels on a dump truck.

[VVArchives]

$1000/week is worth $1900/week in today's value....hardly "rockstar" wages. Mine workers get that easily for just turning the wheels on a dump truck.

And now you realize one of the many reasons Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick were so unhappy. They were miserable in the band. And neither had the songwriting talent of Vinnie whatsoever. They didn't possess 1/10 the songwriting talent of Vinnie.

Can you imagine Vinnie writing all their albums for them and getting paid crap wages and them taking his publishing on top of it? That would be like Tampa Bay offering Tom Brady $2M a year.

[VVArchives]

This fucking angers me, the absolute greediness of a band like this, I was a huge Kiss fan, have been for 45 years, VV basically came along and got them out of the shit they were in in the 80s, with great songs, and kiss fucking knew that, but what do they do? They basically take the piss and exploit him, that contract should never have been signed, total bullshit legally. The absolute talent of VV's songwriting saved Kiss for a few years anyway.

Yes sir! 100% accurate.

I'm so glad that you don't think they could have come up with anything near COTN or LIU without Vinnie. I laughed when I read that.

[doublev2]

You have no idea what publishing is. You are taking here of songwriting credits

Lets look at Animalize. How much publishing did they give up?

1. Paul Stanley, Desmond Child Stanley 3:52
2. "Heaven's on Fire" Stanley, Child Stanley 3:21
3. "Burn Bitch Burn" Gene Simmons Simmons 4:42
4. "Get All You Can Take" Stanley, Mitch Weissman Stanley 3:44
5. "Lonely Is the Hunter" Simmons Simmons 4:28
Side twoNo. Title Writer(s) Lead vocals Length
6. "Under the Gun" Stanley, Eric Carr, Child Stanley 4:01
7. "Thrills in the Night" Stanley, Jean Beauvoir Stanley 4:21
8. "While the City Sleeps" Simmons, Weissman Simmons 3:41
9. "Murder in High-Heels" Simmons, Weissman

1. 50% of publishing to Desmond
2. 50% of publishing to Desmond
3. Gene keeps 100%
4. 50% of publishing to Weissman
5. Gene keeps 100%
6. 1/3 of publishing to Desmond
7. 50% of publishing to Beauvoir
8. 50% of publishing to Weissman
9. 50% of publishing to Weissman

So they didn't save jack at all and ended up with mostly filler.


Asylum is just as bad. When it comes to paying out royalties and the filler is worse.


And then it even gets much worse on Crazy Nights.

My Way the royalties are split 3 days
Good Girl Gone bad another 3 way split
And on 5 of the songs the songwriting royalties are split 3 ways.

In Gene and Paul's greed, they cost themselves tremendously. Vinnie was offering them the keys to the kingdom and they blew it.
And they still had to return to Vinnie in 1991 and of course once again, they weren't smart enough to use all 9-10 songs of his for Revenge. Put him in the group and pay him a fair wage.

[doublev2]

Kiss has just lost most of their money and had a bleak future . They didn't really want Vinnie obviously. They basically were saying join for a better wage than you are getting or not at all..take it or leave it . I think it's too easy to say they were being cheap. Yes they were bring cheap but not many would have turned that contract down to be honest. Vv could have stayed with warrior .
I am not defending kiss but I see it not as simple .
When it comes to talent vv was amazing but I believe they would have just past on him joining and maybe just used him as a song writer if he hadn't have joined . Whatever it is kiss were a band in decline and to be honest creatures didn't get them out of financial decline

This fucking angers me, the absolute greediness of a band like this, I was a huge Kiss fan, have been for 45 years, VV basically came along and got them out of the shit they were in in the 80s, with great songs, and kiss fucking knew that, but what do they do? They basically take the piss and exploit him, that contract should never have been signed, total bullshit legally. The absolute talent of VV's songwriting saved Kiss for a few years anyway.

Yes sir! 100% accurate.

I'm so glad that you don't think they could have come up with anything near COTN or LIU without Vinnie. I laughed when I read that.

[VVArchives]

Kiss has just lost most of their money and had a bleak future . They didn't really want Vinnie obviously. They basically were saying join for a better wage than you are getting or not at all..take it or leave it . I think it's too easy to say they were being cheap. Yes they were bring cheap but not many would have turned that contract down to be honest. Vv could have stayed with warrior .
I am not defending kiss but I see it not as simple .
When it comes to talent vv was amazing but I believe they would have just past on him joining and maybe just used him as a song writer if he hadn't have joined . Whatever it is kiss were a band in decline and to be honest creatures didn't get them out of financial decline

Kiss lost most of their money because they had voided their contract with Ace going. Ace leaving triggered what happened to them. And they also could have at least had a $600K settlement from the label prior to their contract being void but they gambled on winning $6M or more.


Yes, they had a bleak future. Much bleaker without Vinnie. There would have been no Creatures or no Lick It Up without Vinnie. And had KISS passed on him and just used him as a songwriter, he would have been getting Publishers and Writers share.
And you would have seen Streat Beat Music listed on all those songs he wrote on Animalize and all down the rest.

That would have been a far better deal for Vinnie. He could have his solo cake and determine the direction of KISS without his writing.


And yes, anyone who had that many songs recorded for 2 albums and the amount being put out as videos and being played live, they certainly would have turned it down. That was a contract for someone with little songwriting talent and few prospects.

Even Mark St. John regretted signing that. He's a guy who nobody would think of as a songwriter and he even realized what a bs deal it was.

[VVArchives]

You have no idea what publishing is. You are taking here of songwriting credits

Its a simple way of showing how Gene and Paul were worse off when it came to money coming in.


Now Mark St. John doesn't understand Publishing

That was the agreement when I got in the band. They didn't want me to get any publishing, meaning I couldn't contribute any songs to the band. It's like, you can play guitar in the band but we don't want to use any of your music. If I had said no they wouldn't want me in the band because they wanted someone that they could control so they could make all the money. And at the time I am thinking to myself, am I going to be greedy or is this going to be a chance for me to get inside an actual band? Am I going to be stupid and say no and turn down what could be the best gig of my life? So, it was one of those type of things. I took the contract without the publications otherwise I wouldn't have been in the band.

So when it was all said and done, all the work I did and everything, I got fucked. You know, seriously. I spent all the money on attorneys and stuff and it really didn't do any good. So I said, whatever, I'll sign it. And I did the album and everything, and I still didn't sign the contract until I was all done, and that was stupid. It was a good learning experience. I will never do the same thing again, but when I think back at it if I had known more about the business it wouldn't have happened that way. But I was just a musician. It is funny being a musician and not knowing anything about the "business" and then jumping into one of the biggest business bands in the world. I got my feet got wet real fast..... real fast! Like, "Hello!" But it's all good, its all good. I mean, I wouldn't be talking to you or doing what I am doing at these conventions if it wasn't for them.

http://kissasylum.com/views/markstjohn99.shtml


Too bad Mark didn't understand they would be happy to use all the songs he came up with (if they were decent). They'd be happy to exploit him.

And Mark admits he didn't even sign the 'Contract From Hell' until the recording of the album was over.

Vinnie wasn't even let go for 3-4 months after the LIU tour. Had Vinnie actually come back when being asked to, you can bet they would have dropped Mark in a second.

[drmoorejr]

People who discover or invent amazing things do it on standard wages, they don't get paid massive $$$, they just do what they do on work time with work facilities and the company they work for gets the fortune and fame. There's no way Vinnie could get $$$ like 250K or more in return for future songs that may work out or not. Plenty wrong with the contract as written, but an employee is an employee.

I'm not sure if Vinnie's songwriting prowess, great as it was we now know, was forefront on Gene and Paul's mind. They needed a guitar player, who could sing and if he writes, bonus, but there a lot of people to write with and they moved on without a second thought as by now the KISS machine was a business and there was no time for affairs of the heart in regards to people. If they aren't working out, cut 'em loose and move on. They did and probably didn't care. We wish it was different though.

That's ridiculous. Paying him $150K (for full rights to his publishing) would have been nothing on top of his $2000 a week salary.

You keep acting like this was a contract offered to Vinnie before he even wrote one song with Gene and Paul.

Vinnie had more than showed his prowess.

Tears (for Peter Criss album)
COTN (recorded) I Love It Loud, Killer, I Still Love You. (the first two were singles). ISLY was a highlight of the COTN show.
Also recorded: Back On The Streets, Betrayed, Not For The Innocent.

There's 7 songs they know about before LIU

LIU: 8 songs that made the album. There might have been a few others that didn't make it.

Also recorded in 1983 for Wendy O Williams WOW (Gene producing) another Vinnie song "Ain't None Of Your Business"

So KISS knew about all those songs. They knew about the songs he was already working on for their 1984 album. But instead of being smart and tearing up the old deal and offering him a new one they blew it.

I still don't get why Gene didn't tell Paul to screw off and they would offer Vinnie a fair deal. Gene wanted Vinnie back. Vinnie just went AWOL from the KISS Army.

And paying Vinnie $150K for the full publishing (each album) would have been a very wise investment for Gene and Paul. They would have gotten the works cheap had they done that.

But as usual, Gene and Paul think small and they were broke pretty much from 1982-till the reunion. They sure are amazing businessmen (in their own minds).

well said.

[shramiac]

Last week my YT feed had the ET story from a couple of months ago, about Gene selling his LA home. It states he paid $1.35 million in 1984 for the block of land.
Now...even if he didn't pay for it outright but bought it with a mortgage, that's a hell of a lot of money to be investing in a private property if you're broke? That equates to $3.47 million in 2021.

[metatron]

Im no rocket scientist, but I'd say $tanley & $immion$ definition of 'broke' are completely different to those of the average Joe.
Like I know people in Sydney who have told they are 'broke' an then drop $20k @ the casino.
Broke eh right? What's it like when your not 'broke' buddy?
Like $tanley & $immion$ definition of 'final tour', of 'band member', etc.
Hey, but it's not their fault cause you and I must be reading from a different dictionary.

[shramiac]

"then drop $20k @ the casino"

I seriously don't understand the gambling fetish people have? The odds are always with the house and most importantly, money is too hard to earn to then just piss it up against the casino walls! Same for horse racing! And I come from a family that had 4 bookmakers on my dad's side!

Thank fuck I'm a boring bastard! A tightwad, boring bastard!

[VVArchives]

Last week my YT feed had the ET story from a couple of months ago, about Gene selling his LA home. It states he paid $1.35 million in 1984 for the block of land.
Now...even if he didn't pay for it outright but bought it with a mortgage, that's a hell of a lot of money to be investing in a private property if you're broke? That equates to $3.47 million in 2021.

The story behind the spread dates to the early 1980s. According to the Wall Street Journal, which first reported this new listing, Simmons met his future wife, model Shannon Tweed, at a Playboy Mansion party in 1983 — and soon began looking for a home they could share. Soon, they found a secluded ranch house in the Benedict Canyon area. They purchased it in 1984 for $1.35 million. (NY Post)

I believe he bought the land with the House on it in 1984. And then did the changes to it 9-10 years later.

And we know from CK Lendt, who said all Gene and Paul had was their personal properties and that was about it. And he didn't mention if either had a mortgage on them or not.

But KISS sure blew it by not giving Vinnie a deal any sane person would sign. The KISS bio pretty much sums up all the albums KISS put out after LIU up till Revenge as being worthless and chasing trends.

Gene and Paul had the "keys to the kingdom" with Vinnie and they blew it.

[strangeways]

Is this the contract Vinnie signed or did not sign?

[Genebaby]

Vinnie didn't sign anything, which was an issue the whole time he was in the band. Sometimes it's inferred he wasn't REALLY in the band due to not signing, which is a way to look at it. Obviously he was in the band, recording and touring, but it could be argued in an unofficial capacity.

Oh what could have been.

[vinstech]

that’s still more per week than I make in a month

[Genebaby]

Yeah, I would have seen the bigger picture. Yes I think I'm valuable, yes I'm contributing and yes things will get better down the line for all of us and we're all laughing.

[Cowboy]

Paul and Gene really suck business wise,a dead band like after unmasked kiss, would have try to keep Vinnie. But GP were not Smart, I think they believed that they will become again popular,funny thing is that untill reunion they became a low tier hair band.

[Genebaby]

They probably did believe that, and it would have been way too hard to accept someone as an equal after what they had already achieved, that just didn't happen back then. They still had some good songs in them, Tears Are Falling is an amazing song by Paul by himself, it's up there with the brilliance of A Million To One.

So, I can see where they were coming from, but I'm seeing it with the power of hindsight, and as an outsider who thinks, man, Lick It Up was THE BEST, do it again!!!

KISS were businessmen, not their own fans. Gene was asked about the Creatures drum sound and production, why not do it again? He said it wasn't successful so they tried something different.

Like the two different VVI albums, I like Creatures and LIU and appreciate their differences and would find it hard if they swapped their sounds over etc, much like if Robert sang on All Systems Go etc.

[vinstech]

Great post, genebaby!

[Genebaby]

Thanks man.

[aeroflott]

The variable factor in all this I guess was the relationship between Vinnie and the band. We can look at the numbers and the overall deal, which may look shitty on paper (or maybe it was a reasonable deal for an unknown dude joining a band like Kiss, I don't know), but if there was animosity and personal shenanigans going on in the background as well, that won't have helped either side being prepared to back down or offer some flexibility over the contract.

I do get Gene's "keys to the kingdom" comment. Isn't there more to being offered a lead guitarist position for a huge band than just money? As has already been said, a bit more foresight regarding the potential of Kiss' success in the 80s on Vinnie's part might have helped at the time. Remember, they managed to find a replacement for him pretty quickly on what we assume were similar terms. It was good enough for Norton and Kulick, both of whom were plucked out of similar obscurity and offered a chance to shine and enjoy the position.

And in many ways, having someone refusing to sign a contract, when you're responsible for a juggernaut business like Kiss the band, with obligations and record contracts to fulfil - there's going to come a point where you think "We don't need this hassle from a guy who probably isn't the best fit for us anyway. There's a thousand great guitarists out there who'd do this for nothing".

[Genebaby]

Yes. I was discussing this with my work colleague in that Vinnie got his position in KISS much like Mark got his position in VVI. The bands had their backs against a wall to go out and tour. We were watching a 2020 interview with Eddie Trunk and Mark S and Mark explained that yes, of all the people Vinnie was loving again after Atlanta 2018, he was still on the bad list and that he figured Vinnie never really wanted him, he wasn't his best choice etc, because they needed to tour the first album and Robert was not going to do it. So a choice was made and Mark was thrust upon the Invasion. A pretty exciting prospect for a relative unknown musician.

I realised it was much the same for how Vinnie got into KISS. The Creatures album was a protracted audition process to find someone and as the tour grew nearer they decided to go with Vinnie. He wouldn't have been their first choice overall either, as he was not the typical KISS look. It was mentioned in concert reviews about this new short guitarist they had. Time was running out and a choice had to be made and Vinnie got the nod, despite any reservations. The show had to go on.

I don't Vinnie saw that when they needed a new singer quickly, otherwise his treatment of Mark would have hopefully been different. Instead, he probably treated him worse.

[shramiac]

The "keys to the kingdom" does have some merit but, the kingdom did have a couple of the turrets knocked over and the drawbridge had fallen into the moat! Like a sleazy real estate agent selling a "fixer-upper"!

The contract offered was garbage.

[Genebaby]

I'd have signed it and taken the job in a heartbeat. Of course I'm a no talent that would have no chance at scoring the gig, but anyway.....LoL....

[Luxor]

Yes. I was discussing this with my work colleague in that Vinnie got his position in KISS much like Mark got his position in VVI. The bands had their backs against a wall to go out and tour. We were watching a 2020 interview with Eddie Trunk and Mark S and Mark explained that yes, of all the people Vinnie was loving again after Atlanta 2018, he was still on the bad list and that he figured Vinnie never really wanted him, he wasn't his best choice etc, because they needed to tour the first album and Robert was not going to do it. So a choice was made and Mark was thrust upon the Invasion. A pretty exciting prospect for a relative unknown musician.

I realised it was much the same for how Vinnie got into KISS. The Creatures album was a protracted audition process to find someone and as the tour grew nearer they decided to go with Vinnie. He wouldn't have been their first choice overall either, as he was not the typical KISS look. It was mentioned in concert reviews about this new short guitarist they had. Time was running out and a choice had to be made and Vinnie got the nod, despite any reservations. The show had to go on.

I don't Vinnie saw that when they needed a new singer quickly, otherwise his treatment of Mark would have hopefully been different. Instead, he probably treated him worse.

I disagree. Vinnie was nothing like Mark. Vinnie beat out hundreds of guitar players KISS went through. Over 50 or more auditioned for them. Bruce and so many others didn't make the cut.

How many songs of Vinnie's did they record during the Creatures sessions?

I don't remember them recording one song of Marks. Much less 6.

You are acting like Vinnie was hired in late November / early December or so because they had a tour ready to go and no choice. When he was hired back in September.

I don't recall any reviews mentioning a short guitarist. He was in huge platform boots. Who would notice? If anything and they were smart, they would have shortened the platforms on Gene and Paul and let Eric and Vinnie have higher ones to better match.

[Luxor]

I do get Gene's "keys to the kingdom" comment. Isn't there more to being offered a lead guitarist position for a huge band than just money? As has already been said, a bit more foresight regarding the potential of Kiss' success in the 80s on Vinnie's part might have helped at the time. Remember, they managed to find a replacement for him pretty quickly on what we assume were similar terms. It was good enough for Norton and Kulick, both of whom were plucked out of similar obscurity and offered a chance to shine and enjoy the position.

And in many ways, having someone refusing to sign a contract, when you're responsible for a juggernaut business like Kiss the band, with obligations and record contracts to fulfil - there's going to come a point where you think "We don't need this hassle from a guy who probably isn't the best fit for us anyway. There's a thousand great guitarists out there who'd do this for nothing".

A huge band that was DOA in 1982

And you are also confusing contracts. The horrible contract was the one that came about later. By the time they wanted him to sign that new deal, Creatures was done. Two of his songs were released as singles. Two were in the concert setlist. Not to mention the other songs recorded for COTN that weren't included. He had also written most of LIU by himself.

So you want Vinnie to sign that unsignable deal after he is carrying KISS on his back? You want him to give up all the songs he wrote prior to KISS? Any songs after KISS, they control. If he goes solo, they control. You name it, they wanted to own everything he was doing. And on top of that, they wanted him to do it for 1/2 the salary he was getting a year earlier

You also want to compare Vinnie to Mark or Bruce? How so? Neither contributed much of anything to the band. Look how much sales dropped for Bruce's first album. Of course, Mark would sign (even though he later said he regretted it) and Bruce would sign. Bruce and Mark were just generic guitarists with limited songwriting ability. And as we all know, after KISS terrible years of failures, Vinnie was summoned again.

The only person KISS handed the keys to the kingdom to were maybe Tommy and Eric.

[Luxor]

They probably did believe that, and it would have been way too hard to accept someone as an equal after what they had already achieved, that just didn't happen back then. They still had some good songs in them, Tears Are Falling is an amazing song by Paul by himself, it's up there with the brilliance of A Million To One.

I don't think TAF is anywhere near the greatness of "A Million To One".

I remember how great Paul's "Live To Win" tour was. It was great hearing "Lick It Up", "I Still Love You" and "A Million To One". I don't recall "Tears Are Falling" being played.

[aeroflott]

A huge band that was DOA in 1982

And you are also confusing contracts. The horrible contract was the one that came about later. By the time they wanted him to sign that new deal, Creatures was done. Two of his songs were released as singles. Two were in the concert setlist. Not to mention the other songs recorded for COTN that weren't included. He had also written most of LIU by himself.

So you want Vinnie to sign that unsignable deal after he is carrying KISS on his back? You want him to give up all the songs he wrote prior to KISS? Any songs after KISS, they control. If he goes solo, they control. You name it, they wanted to own everything he was doing. And on top of that, they wanted him to do it for 1/2 the salary he was getting a year earlier

You also want to compare Vinnie to Mark or Bruce? How so? Neither contributed much of anything to the band. Look how much sales dropped for Bruce's first album. Of course, Mark would sign (even though he later said he regretted it) and Bruce would sign. Bruce and Mark were just generic guitarists with limited songwriting ability. And as we all know, after KISS terrible years of failures, Vinnie was summoned again.

The only person KISS handed the keys to the kingdom to were maybe Tommy and Eric.

The contract(s) were the contract(s). On paper they might have been unacceptable to Vinnie. It is what it is. Kiss wanted him to sign, he clearly didn't want to. It seems that his general behaviour and antics were pissing off Paul and Gene - my point is that wouldn't have helped his cause when asking for improvement to the terms of his employment.

Take your point though, the terms don't look great on paper for someone who contributed so much to the songwriting process. But on that, I assume there was no bullet to VV's head in terms of delivering songs and ideas for LIU. If he offered them up, the band was always going to take 'em!

Maybe there was a slow realisation from Vinnie and Gene/Paul, that Kiss wanted a "yes man" lead guitarist like Bruce, who just turned up, did a job, was generally told where to be and what to do in return for a salary and not much else. Clearly that is not Vinnie Vincent, who appears to have been his own man and wanted to add to the creativity side of things.

[Genebaby]

Fast forward a few years and Vinnie gets what he wants but is unable to keep it together, with losing Robert first and the fiasco with the Boyz video after that, to losing the whole band completely. Clearly he would have done better in KISS under Gene and Paul, who are sort of still playing a show or two today even!!!

[aeroflott]

What's the story around the Boyz video?

[Genebaby]

Using Mark to lip sync and getting sued by Robert, not good times.

[VVArchives]

Fast forward a few years and Vinnie gets what he wants but is unable to keep it together, with losing Robert first and the fiasco with the Boyz video after that, to losing the whole band completely. Clearly he would have done better in KISS under Gene and Paul, who are sort of still playing a show or two today even!!!

No he would not have. The Robert fiasco is on George Sewitt. He lied to the label and claimed he had everyone under contract. George has screwed Vinnie, Ace and Peter.

And alot probably had no idea one could sue over that. You didn't see Ellen Foley suing Meatloaf's label for putting out the promo clip with Karla Devito lip synching to Ellen's vocals.

Vinnie had so many unfortunate things happen during that time. Changes at the label, his own management. You name it. It happened

Still Invasion was a monster album. Around 30 weeks on the charts with only 1 single/video. That sure beat KISS with Bruce's first album Asylum. They were on 28 weeks and they needed 3 music video/singles to keep them on their that long.


I also think some need to read "The Eric Carr" story to find out how brain f'd Eric Carr was as early as 1983. Gene and Paul mentally destroyed Peter, Ace, Eric, Vinnie, Mark.


Remember, it was you who talked about Bruce and Eric Singer eating with the crew in the early 90's to save their per diem. How sucky was the pay then they were doing that?

Vinnies two options if he stayed in KISS. Write a ton of great songs and let Gene and Paul reap almost all the rewards from his work. Or don't write any songs and KISS is putting out the kind of garbage they did which didn't sell. Not very good options.

[VVArchives]

A huge band that was DOA in 1982

And you are also confusing contracts. The horrible contract was the one that came about later. By the time they wanted him to sign that new deal, Creatures was done. Two of his songs were released as singles. Two were in the concert setlist. Not to mention the other songs recorded for COTN that weren't included. He had also written most of LIU by himself.

So you want Vinnie to sign that unsignable deal after he is carrying KISS on his back? You want him to give up all the songs he wrote prior to KISS? Any songs after KISS, they control. If he goes solo, they control. You name it, they wanted to own everything he was doing. And on top of that, they wanted him to do it for 1/2 the salary he was getting a year earlier

You also want to compare Vinnie to Mark or Bruce? How so? Neither contributed much of anything to the band. Look how much sales dropped for Bruce's first album. Of course, Mark would sign (even though he later said he regretted it) and Bruce would sign. Bruce and Mark were just generic guitarists with limited songwriting ability. And as we all know, after KISS terrible years of failures, Vinnie was summoned again.

The only person KISS handed the keys to the kingdom to were maybe Tommy and Eric.

The contract(s) were the contract(s). On paper they might have been unacceptable to Vinnie. It is what it is. Kiss wanted him to sign, he clearly didn't want to. It seems that his general behaviour and antics were pissing off Paul and Gene - my point is that wouldn't have helped his cause when asking for improvement to the terms of his employment.

Take your point though, the terms don't look great on paper for someone who contributed so much to the songwriting process. But on that, I assume there was no bullet to VV's head in terms of delivering songs and ideas for LIU. If he offered them up, the band was always going to take 'em!

Maybe there was a slow realisation from Vinnie and Gene/Paul, that Kiss wanted a "yes man" lead guitarist like Bruce, who just turned up, did a job, was generally told where to be and what to do in return for a salary and not much else. Clearly that is not Vinnie Vincent, who appears to have been his own man and wanted to add to the creativity side of things.

If he signed that contract, the band wouldn't only take all the LIU songs, but they would own every single song he had previously written. And thoy would own songs of his in the future. They'd own his solo career if he had one.


Look at Paul. He's even making up stuff about Vinnie extending his solos. Paul's mental state was horrible. Probably still is today. But when he was under the spell of a mad doctor. What do you expect?

[aeroflott]

Paul doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would "make stuff up".

Given VV's track record with boxsets, guitar endorsements and recent show performances against what was originally promised, I know who's word I'd take as the truth.

[VVArchives]

Paul doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would "make stuff up".

Given VV's track record with boxsets, guitar endorsements and recent show performances against what was originally promised, I know who's word I'd take as the truth.

Boy, someone doesn't know much KISStory if they believe that. Pretty much anyone will tell you, Paul is the biggest liar by far in KISS. After that, of course, its Gene.

[aeroflott]

Boy, someone doesn't know much KISStory if they believe that. Pretty much anyone will tell you, Paul is the biggest liar by far in KISS. After that, of course, its Gene.

Random guy on the internet calls Paul Stanley a liar and backs it up with "pretty much anyone will tell you".

With respect, do you stop to think about what you are posting before you press the submit button?

[Luxor]

Take your point though, the terms don't look great on paper for someone who contributed so much to the songwriting process. But on that, I assume there was no bullet to VV's head in terms of delivering songs and ideas for LIU. If he offered them up, the band was always going to take 'em!

They would have already heard numerous songs that were prepared for Animalize. Had he signed that contract, they would have owned those songs.

As long as he would have been with KISS, he could have never done the copyrights etc for his songs and he was still in KISS, they would own them.

Thats one reason someone like Bruce, Eric Carr or Mark St John could sign a contract like that and for Vinnie it would be terrible.