Bobby Rock Drum Clinic 10/22/1988

[DaBonadono]

This is a drum clinic with Bobby Rock from a music store called Midway Music that was located in Cleveland, Ohio. It was recorded on October 22, 1988. I uploaded the audio to youtube earlier today and I thought I would pass this along to you guys (and girls).

[Genebaby]

Great, Bobby is an amazing drummer. Quite a find for Vinnie and obvious why he was chosen, he has more chops than most butchers!!

[wolfgang161272]

wow - I'm impressed! Love his style. amazing

[pullitt]

He's excellent. Love listening to him drumming on his own. Not in a band context though, a lot of times it's just "dum-dum dah, dum-dum dah".

[Genebaby]

Have you guys seen his instrctional drum video? It's insane!

[pullitt]

Oh, correction - I'm really fond of the Skull album on which he drums. All Systems Go also had it's moments with him.

[VVArchives]

Great, Bobby is an amazing drummer. Quite a find for Vinnie and obvious why he was chosen, he has more chops than most butchers!!

Shame that Paul was too stupid to go ahead with Bob Kulicks suggestion to use Bobby in Paul's solo band. Bobby blows away Singer. Also, it would have been great to see Bobby take over for Eric Carr in KISS.

[Genebaby]

That would have been mad, but even cooler was if Vinnie was smarter and had stayed in KISS, the music they would have made!!!!

[VVArchives]

That would have been mad, but even cooler was if Vinnie was smarter and had stayed in KISS, the music they would have made!!!!

Smarter? He would have had to be clinically insane to stay under the contract they were offering. I don't know what that one Kiss Historian didn't call Gene out on that contract when he was complaining Vinnie wouldn't sign it. There were so many absolute deal breakers in that contract. Have you even read it? And Vinnie showed he didn't need KISS. He got one record deal. Sure he got screwed over by the new people coming in before ASG and he got screwed over by his manager lying to the label. But even then Vinnie had a major label offer (Sony) and Enigma soon after the Chrysalis debacle. During that time, Vinnie put out two incredible albums.

Look at the mediocrity KISS put out without him there. And lo and behold look who they went back to when it was obvious it wasn't working.

Now if Kiss would have offered Vinnie a legitimate deal, they would have both benefited tremendously. Either back in 1984 or again in 1992. While I think Gene didn't have a problem with people calling LIU "Vinnie's solo" and other things, I do think it bothered Paul tremendously. I also think that's why they only used 3 songs of his on Revenge. Can you imagine the reaction if they had used 9 or 10 of his songs again?

[Genebaby]

Vinnie was not a hot property, and never ended up being one despite his brilliance at song writing, so I can imagine the contract wasn't great, but the output on LIU was amazing and they would have built that up where Vinnie's star would have shone and risen and his contract would change.

Nothing can change that it was only Ace and Peter that were also there in the beginning with Gene and Paul, in the trenches, doing the hard yards so that even though diminished by the 80's, KISS was still a well known band worldwide. You can't join any corporation where the owner started it from nothing and be an equal partner in it. You contribute and you can be rewarded. Vinnie had barely started. He didn't care for what they were doing musically enough to want to stay.

I like the way he played, more restrained, on LIU, but I also like the way he played on the VVI albums as they are good songs as well. Had he stayed, renegotiated, reaped the rewards, he could have done a solo thing or two to get the OTT guitar out of his system, but LIU worked so well.

Yes, the KISS albums that followed weren't as good, but they weren't so terrible like The Elder that the band tanked. Close at times, but not till the 90's did KISS need the re-union to recover their flagging career.

Paul and Gene to this day don't consider LIU as good as it is, it's just the album with Vinnie where they took the makeup off and the song Lick It Up was on it.

They are pragmatic business men by then, trying things to see what sticks. Gene was asked why they didn't do the same big drum sound production on LIU as on Creatures, he said because they tried it and it didn't work, so on to the next thing, which was a different, but balanced, sound and no makeup. Either one or both of those helped LIU do better.

When the LIU tour finished I can imagine Gene and Paul just thought as long as we get another guy who can wail on the guitar we'll be right, and they did ok, not great but ok. I do like and listen to those albums.

[VVArchives]

Vinnie was not a hot property, and never ended up being one despite his brilliance at song writing, so I can imagine the contract wasn't great, but the output on LIU was amazing and they would have built that up where Vinnie's star would have shone and risen and his contract would change.

Nothing can change that it was only Ace and Peter that were also there in the beginning with Gene and Paul, in the trenches, doing the hard yards so that even though diminished by the 80's, KISS was still a well known band worldwide. You can't join any corporation where the owner started it from nothing and be an equal partner in it. You contribute and you can be rewarded. Vinnie had barely started. He didn't care for what they were doing musically enough to want to stay.

I like the way he played, more restrained, on LIU, but I also like the way he played on the VVI albums as they are good songs as well. Had he stayed, renegotiated, reaped the rewards, he could have done a solo thing or two to get the OTT guitar out of his system, but LIU worked so well.

Yes, the KISS albums that followed weren't as good, but they weren't so terrible like The Elder that the band tanked. Close at times, but not till the 90's did KISS need the re-union to recover their flagging career.

Paul and Gene to this day don't consider LIU as good as it is, it's just the album with Vinnie where they took the makeup off and the song Lick It Up was on it.

They are pragmatic business men by then, trying things to see what sticks. Gene was asked why they didn't do the same big drum sound production on LIU as on Creatures, he said because they tried it and it didn't work, so on to the next thing, which was a different, but balanced, sound and no makeup. Either one or both of those helped LIU do better.

When the LIU tour finished I can imagine Gene and Paul just thought as long as we get another guy who can wail on the guitar we'll be right, and they did ok, not great but ok. I do like and listen to those albums.

I think you have most of it wrong. Vinnie was a very hot property back then. Ace and Peter sure couldn't get a deal. Vinnie had offers thrown around him all during that time. CBS records right before he joined KISS. Chrysalis soon after he left KISS. Then it didn't take anytime for Sony & Enigma.

I don't know if you assume stuff or what. Equal partner and other stuff like? You are just making stuff up. It was not that at all. And if Vinnie did contribute, he wouldn't be rewarded because they would own all he contributed and he would get the shaft.

Gene and Paul won't ever admit how great Lick It Up was. That's because Vinnie got all the praise for that album. Paul would rather act like an inferior follow up was better because he produced it.

I am thankful Vinnie walked away from KISS in 1984. He left them and he did the right thing. Again, the fact that KISS had to go back to Vinnie after some many albums which were duds, speaks volumes. The fact that the two lead off singles/videos were Vinnie again says everything anyone needs to know. If you look at Alive III, there's 5 Cusano songs. There should be alot more though. To me, the highlight of Pauls solo tour in 2007 was the most under-rated song in KISStory, "A Million To One".

[Genebaby]

What am I assuming and making up? You aren't going to get an equal share of a pie that, while it's value had diminished, was worth a hell of a lot more than a thousand unknown, unsigned bands.

Vinnie was not that much of a hot property, he's lucky he got some offers. Two albums that didn't make a dent in America's consciousness...though they should have, that ended in him being let go isn't the best look on your resume.

He's obviously got talent, and if you can see that and hope he will do the right thing by you, then you could be on to a winner. Vinne was playing record and guitar companies against each other back then and it didn't work out.

No matter what happened with any record company, he has had the power to pull himself up from the mud and do shit. Actual real shit, like many other people have, but nothing eventuated but a quickie EP of four songs as his output for the 90's. No live shows, a bit of miming playing at Conventions and pretending the Euphoria cover photo was a recent pic.

[doublev2]

I bumped into Bobby here at crossroads restaurant recently

[VVArchives]

I bumped into Bobby here at crossroads restaurant recently

Let me guess.... some Vegan place?

[VVArchives]

What am I assuming and making up? You aren't going to get an equal share of a pie that, while it's value had diminished, was worth a hell of a lot more than a thousand unknown, unsigned bands.

Vinnie was not that much of a hot property, he's lucky he got some offers. Two albums that didn't make a dent in America's consciousness...though they should have, that ended in him being let go isn't the best look on your resume.

He's obviously got talent, and if you can see that and hope he will do the right thing by you, then you could be on to a winner. Vinne was playing record and guitar companies against each other back then and it didn't work out.

No matter what happened with any record company, he has had the power to pull himself up from the mud and do shit. Actual real shit, like many other people have, but nothing eventuated but a quickie EP of four songs as his output for the 90's. No live shows, a bit of miming playing at Conventions and pretending the Euphoria cover photo was a recent pic.

Vinnie was a huge hot property in North America after Lick It Up. Vinnie's work on those two albums did make him very hot. What he did on COTN and LIU were huge.

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

[Genebaby]

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

There's more than one.

Is he a lady now?
Can he still play?
Does he really think he can steal Tom Palecki's property and get away with it forever, nobody will remember and keep reminding people?
Does he really have fans stupid enough to pay the prices he charges for things that are worth nothing like the price?
When will he put out the box set for new fans and give the intial buyers their two copies?
When will he stop using aliases on the internet to say derogatory things?

[Genebaby]

Vinnie was a huge hot property in North America after Lick It Up. Vinnie's work on those two albums did make him very hot. What he did on COTN and LIU were huge.

Vinnie was a lot warmer than he ever was after KISS, that's for sure, but not hot.

LIU is a great album. A fantastic album, but it didn't set the world on fire (sadly), all it did was at least improve on it's predecessor, which itself deserved to do better.

No matter what the news blurbs said about KISS on their latest sold our world tour, playing to rabid fans, it wasn't true in the 80's. They were not Bon Jovi on the Slippery tour, they were just getting by, all through the 80's.

Lick it up didn't reverse their fortunes, Vinnie did not become the next Desmond Child, but he did get a bump up from "who the heck is Vinnie Cusano" to "oh yeah, Vinnie Vincent, I've heard of him".

As much as we hate to admit it, Creatures of the Night and LIU were going to be released with or without Vinnie.

Gene and Paul understook the collosal goof that The Elder was for their career and were going full tilt the other way, Vinnie or not. And after that tour they realised they needed another gimmick and that was to unmask and raise some interest in the band and stop being the 70's dinosaurs that they were being seen as.

[VVArchives]

Vinnie was a huge hot property in North America after Lick It Up. Vinnie's work on those two albums did make him very hot. What he did on COTN and LIU were huge.

Vinnie was a lot warmer than he ever was after KISS, that's for sure, but not hot.

LIU is a great album. A fantastic album, but it didn't set the world on fire (sadly), all it did was at least improve on it's predecessor, which itself deserved to do better.

No matter what the news blurbs said about KISS on their latest sold our world tour, playing to rabid fans, it wasn't true in the 80's. They were not Bon Jovi on the Slippery tour, they were just getting by, all through the 80's.

Lick it up didn't reverse their fortunes, Vinnie did not become the next Desmond Child, but he did get a bump up from "who the heck is Vinnie Cusano" to "oh yeah, Vinnie Vincent, I've heard of him".

As much as we hate to admit it, Creatures of the Night and LIU were going to be released with or without Vinnie.

Gene and Paul understook the collosal goof that The Elder was for their career and were going full tilt the other way, Vinnie or not. And after that tour they realised they needed another gimmick and that was to unmask and raise some interest in the band and stop being the 70's dinosaurs that they were being seen as.

Couldn't disagree with you more. I think because you aren't in North America you have a very different perception.

But lets go with your "claims" first. You claim COTN/ LIU did nothing to reverse KISS fortunes and they would have put them out regardless.

Remind me what Unmasked did as well as The Elder sales wise.
Remind me how many attended the Unmasked tour and The Elder tour in the states.

Both of those albums were huge failures in the states. There were no tours to support either of them. After promoters took such a bath on Dynasty why would they be interested in tours for albums that didn't sell?


Now you claim KISS would have put out the same albums w/ or without Vinnie. How so?

Lets listen to what Michael Jackson came up with prior to Vinnie:


It lacks any balls. The songs aren't very good. They are pretty unmemorable.

So how would they have put out an album that sounded anything like COTN if Vinnie had not appeared. We don't know how many songs they wrote together for the album. We know 6 were recorded for it. You don't think that makes all the difference in the world?

Kiss was back on tour supporting Creatures and they weren't losing millions like when Ace and Peter were still there. COTN performed better on Billboard than Unmasked and certainly The Elder.

Now we have Lick It Up. The album many call the Vinnie Vincent solo record. 8 of the tracks are Vinnie tracks. Again, no telling how many were actually written and not used. LIU hit #24 in its 2nd week on the charts. It spent 30 weeks on the charts. That wasn't reversing their fortunes? Their first million selling album since 1979. How was KISS going to get a Lick It Up album or COTN without Vinnie? They weren't.

As everyone saw, Vinnie had already been writing for Animalize and then he went AWOL. Kiss tried to recreate what Vinnie was doing but they failed. Animalize was a bad attempt at trying to recreate LIU.

Do we even need to discuss how lost Kiss was Asylum-Hits?

Now remind us again what happened with Revenge? Gene is said to have said he wrote 10 songs with Vinnie for it. Vinnie acts like there's 9-10 songs that should have made up Revenge. The sound most often compared to Revenge. It sounds like COTN/LIU.

And when Vinnie wasn't around for the next one. What happened?

Who was getting all the praise for Lick It Up? It wasn't Paul and Gene it was the guy whose name appeared on pretty much every song. I'm sure all the positive praise Vinnie was getting was hard for Paul and Eric. I doubt Gene cared because their fortunes had been reversed.


You keep bringing up Bon Jovi Slippery. Why not talk how Bon Jovi did or 7800 initially?

And I'm glad Vinnie wasn't Desmond Child for KISS. The albums he participated in are some of KISS' worst. Dynasty, Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights. 2 of the worst songs KISS ever recorded on Smashes, Hot In The Shade.

Wasn't it Gene who put his foot down after a long string of KISS albums that were very under-performing and pretty weak and tell Paul Desmond would never work with KISS again? Then on Revenge, Vinnie is back and Desmond is history. And Desmond still hasn't contributed to a KISS album since 1989's Hot In The Shade.

[VVArchives]

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

There's more than one.

Is he a lady now?
Can he still play?
Does he really think he can steal Tom Palecki's property and get away with it forever, nobody will remember and keep reminding people?
Does he really have fans stupid enough to pay the prices he charges for things that are worth nothing like the price?
When will he put out the box set for new fans and give the intial buyers their two copies?
When will he stop using aliases on the internet to say derogatory things?

Funny, but you know the answer as well as everyone else. The questions is -- did he or did he not save a particular band

[Genebaby]

Vinnie was a huge hot property in North America after Lick It Up. Vinnie's work on those two albums did make him very hot. What he did on COTN and LIU were huge.

Vinnie was a lot warmer than he ever was after KISS, that's for sure, but not hot.

LIU is a great album. A fantastic album, but it didn't set the world on fire (sadly), all it did was at least improve on it's predecessor, which itself deserved to do better.

No matter what the news blurbs said about KISS on their latest sold our world tour, playing to rabid fans, it wasn't true in the 80's. They were not Bon Jovi on the Slippery tour, they were just getting by, all through the 80's.

Lick it up didn't reverse their fortunes, Vinnie did not become the next Desmond Child, but he did get a bump up from "who the heck is Vinnie Cusano" to "oh yeah, Vinnie Vincent, I've heard of him".

As much as we hate to admit it, Creatures of the Night and LIU were going to be released with or without Vinnie.

Gene and Paul understook the collosal goof that The Elder was for their career and were going full tilt the other way, Vinnie or not. And after that tour they realised they needed another gimmick and that was to unmask and raise some interest in the band and stop being the 70's dinosaurs that they were being seen as.

Couldn't disagree with you more. I think because you aren't in North America you have a very different perception.

But lets go with your "claims" first. You claim COTN/ LIU did nothing to reverse KISS fortunes and they would have put them out regardless.

Remind me what Unmasked did as well as The Elder sales wise.
Remind me how many attended the Unmasked tour and The Elder tour in the states.

Both of those albums were huge failures in the states. There were no tours to support either of them. After promoters took such a bath on Dynasty why would they be interested in tours for albums that didn't sell?


Now you claim KISS would have put out the same albums w/ or without Vinnie. How so?

Lets listen to what Michael Jackson came up with prior to Vinnie:


It lacks any balls. The songs aren't very good. They are pretty unmemorable.

So how would they have put out an album that sounded anything like COTN if Vinnie had not appeared. We don't know how many songs they wrote together for the album. We know 6 were recorded for it. You don't think that makes all the difference in the world?

Kiss was back on tour supporting Creatures and they weren't losing millions like when Ace and Peter were still there. COTN performed better on Billboard than Unmasked and certainly The Elder.

Now we have Lick It Up. The album many call the Vinnie Vincent solo record. 8 of the tracks are Vinnie tracks. Again, no telling how many were actually written and not used. LIU hit #24 in its 2nd week on the charts. It spent 30 weeks on the charts. That wasn't reversing their fortunes? Their first million selling album since 1979. How was KISS going to get a Lick It Up album or COTN without Vinnie? They weren't.

As everyone saw, Vinnie had already been writing for Animalize and then he went AWOL. Kiss tried to recreate what Vinnie was doing but they failed. Animalize was a bad attempt at trying to recreate LIU.

Do we even need to discuss how lost Kiss was Asylum-Hits?

Now remind us again what happened with Revenge? Gene is said to have said he wrote 10 songs with Vinnie for it. Vinnie acts like there's 9-10 songs that should have made up Revenge. The sound most often compared to Revenge. It sounds like COTN/LIU.

And when Vinnie wasn't around for the next one. What happened?

Who was getting all the praise for Lick It Up? It wasn't Paul and Gene it was the guy whose name appeared on pretty much every song. I'm sure all the positive praise Vinnie was getting was hard for Paul and Eric. I doubt Gene cared because their fortunes had been reversed.


You keep bringing up Bon Jovi Slippery. Why not talk how Bon Jovi did or 7800 initially?

And I'm glad Vinnie wasn't Desmond Child for KISS. The albums he participated in are some of KISS' worst. Dynasty, Animalize, Asylum, Crazy Nights. 2 of the worst songs KISS ever recorded on Smashes, Hot In The Shade.

Wasn't it Gene who put his foot down after a long string of KISS albums that were very under-performing and pretty weak and tell Paul Desmond would never work with KISS again? Then on Revenge, Vinnie is back and Desmond is history. And Desmond still hasn't contributed to a KISS album since 1989's Hot In The Shade.

I'm with you on Vinnie is awesome and KISS with Vinnie is awesome but they don't see it that way. Paul doesn't think of LIU as highly as COTN, probably due to his dislike for Vinnie, as LIU is the superior album, but of course COTN is great, but there are great songs on COTN that Vinnie didn't write. It was going to happen.

BTW, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the new songs on Killers. Paul doesn't rate it, but they are so cool, I love them and the production. I like the production on Killers and LIU better than COTN as they are more balanced.

I never said Vinnie was not the Desmond Child for KISS, he didn't become like Desmond Child full stop, writing actually massive hit songs with other acts.

Don't get too caught up in it, you're seeing what I'm saying out of context a bit I think. If you don't like Killers, that's fine, but I really do, I'm a big, big KISS fan. Love Dynasty, love Unmasked, I can listen to the 80's stuff, enjoying it for what it is, wishing Vinnie had been there, but that didn't happen.

[Genebaby]

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

There's more than one.

Is he a lady now?
Can he still play?
Does he really think he can steal Tom Palecki's property and get away with it forever, nobody will remember and keep reminding people?
Does he really have fans stupid enough to pay the prices he charges for things that are worth nothing like the price?
When will he put out the box set for new fans and give the intial buyers their two copies?
When will he stop using aliases on the internet to say derogatory things?

Funny, but you know the answer as well as everyone else. The questions is -- did he or did he not save a particular band

He certainly helped, but it would have happened anyway as KISS needed to unmask and create some interest. KISS had discovered that people listen with their eyes and they no longer cared for the makeup in the 80's, it was seen as outdated. So they put out Creatures to little fanfare compared to the quality of the album.

LIU was even better musically and benefited from the unmasking. I think it was Eddie Trunk who told us people were saying, hey KISS have taken the makeup off, don't they sound better now?

[Slayer]

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

There's more than one.

Is he a lady now?
Can he still play?
Does he really think he can steal Tom Palecki's property and get away with it forever, nobody will remember and keep reminding people?
Does he really have fans stupid enough to pay the prices he charges for things that are worth nothing like the price?
When will he put out the box set for new fans and give the intial buyers their two copies?
When will he stop using aliases on the internet to say derogatory things?

This busted me up! Thank you

[VVArchives]

What's the one question associated with Vinnie?

There's more than one.

Is he a lady now?
Can he still play?
Does he really think he can steal Tom Palecki's property and get away with it forever, nobody will remember and keep reminding people?
Does he really have fans stupid enough to pay the prices he charges for things that are worth nothing like the price?
When will he put out the box set for new fans and give the intial buyers their two copies?
When will he stop using aliases on the internet to say derogatory things?

Funny, but you know the answer as well as everyone else. The questions is -- did he or did he not save a particular band

He certainly helped, but it would have happened anyway as KISS needed to unmask and create some interest. KISS had discovered that people listen with their eyes and they no longer cared for the makeup in the 80's, it was seen as outdated. So they put out Creatures to little fanfare compared to the quality of the album.

LIU was even better musically and benefited from the unmasking. I think it was Eddie Trunk who told us people were saying, hey KISS have taken the makeup off, don't they sound better now?

Again, you weren't in North America. When KISS unmasked, it was a non-event.

I also can't believe people fall for Paul or Eddie's nonsense about the unmasking.

All one would have to do is ask what if KISS unmasked in 1980> Would anyone in the states care?

If KISS had unmasked with The Elder would it have actually sold more than 110K copies or so at retail? I doubt it.

Eddie and Paul are just making excuses. Paul especially. Does anyone think Paul liked all the glowing adulation Lick It Up was getting?

Here comes Vinnie and people are calling it a Vinnie solo album and other things. People are loving the new single that was written 95% by Vinnie. What was it 250K shipped the first week or two? It quickly hit half a million shipped and then on to a million shipped in less than 9 months. And Paul and Gene knew all that prior to Animalize coming out.

They should have done anything to keep Vinnie around.

[VVArchives]

I'm with you on Vinnie is awesome and KISS with Vinnie is awesome but they don't see it that way. Paul doesn't think of LIU as highly as COTN, probably due to his dislike for Vinnie, as LIU is the superior album, but of course COTN is great, but there are great songs on COTN that Vinnie didn't write. It was going to happen.

BTW, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the new songs on Killers. Paul doesn't rate it, but they are so cool, I love them and the production. I like the production on Killers and LIU better than COTN as they are more balanced.

I never said Vinnie was not the Desmond Child for KISS, he didn't become like Desmond Child full stop, writing actually massive hit songs with other acts.

Don't get too caught up in it, you're seeing what I'm saying out of context a bit I think. If you don't like Killers, that's fine, but I really do, I'm a big, big KISS fan. Love Dynasty, love Unmasked, I can listen to the 80's stuff, enjoying it for what it is, wishing Vinnie had been there, but that didn't happen.

First, I don't care what Paul says publicly. Deep down he knows the truth and he hates it. Paul can whine all he wants but how many songs were they doing live off the one Paul says is better vs LIU? When it came down to the live show, KISS proved which one they believed in more.

Again you keep acting like COTN would have still sounded like that without Vinnie's influence and all the songs and time spent together. You bring up that they had other songs on COTN that Vinnie didn't write.

"I'm a Legend Tonight" Paul Stanley, Adam Mitchel
"Partners in Crime" Stanley, Mitchell

COMPARE ADAM MITCHELL SONGS before and After Vinnie. After Vinnie came in and wrote and influenced them, Adam's songs actually had some balls which were sorely lacking before. And look at the wuss songs Adam was writing later with KISS (Crazy Nights, songs for Silent Rage with Bruce and others)

"Creatures of the Night" Paul Stanley, Adam Mitchell
"Keep Me Comin'" Stanley, Mitchell
"Down on Your Knees" Stanley, Mikel Japp, Bryan Adams

About the only time Adam wrote with any balls is when Vinnie was in the picture.




"Down on Your Knees" Stanley, Mikel Japp, Bryan Adams
But what did they sound like prior to that and the Vinnie influence


Original Version of R&R Hell


"Rock and Roll Hell" Simmons, Bryan Adams, Jim Vallance



Once again, I think COTN would have sounded almost exactly like "Killers" if not for Vinnie. Many KISS fans have said KISS would not have survived if that were the case. No Ace. No record deal. And if KISS had put out 3 duds in a row with no promise at all, why would Polygram bother keeping them? Adios KISS.

[doublev2]

Vinnie wasn't around for the track creatures of the night and that doesn't sound like killers.

Yes Vinnie great on creatures and has huge impact but the sound and heaviness not down to vv. The producer said vv was if anything too melodic. The heavy sound came from production and engineering not Vinnie .

Taking nothing from Vinnie but the overall sound not Vinnie but the epic i still love you is a highlight of kiss history

I'm with you on Vinnie is awesome and KISS with Vinnie is awesome but they don't see it that way. Paul doesn't think of LIU as highly as COTN, probably due to his dislike for Vinnie, as LIU is the superior album, but of course COTN is great, but there are great songs on COTN that Vinnie didn't write. It was going to happen.

BTW, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the new songs on Killers. Paul doesn't rate it, but they are so cool, I love them and the production. I like the production on Killers and LIU better than COTN as they are more balanced.

I never said Vinnie was not the Desmond Child for KISS, he didn't become like Desmond Child full stop, writing actually massive hit songs with other acts.

Don't get too caught up in it, you're seeing what I'm saying out of context a bit I think. If you don't like Killers, that's fine, but I really do, I'm a big, big KISS fan. Love Dynasty, love Unmasked, I can listen to the 80's stuff, enjoying it for what it is, wishing Vinnie had been there, but that didn't happen.

First, I don't care what Paul says publicly. Deep down he knows the truth and he hates it. Paul can whine all he wants but how many songs were they doing live off the one Paul says is better vs LIU? When it came down to the live show, KISS proved which one they believed in more.

Again you keep acting like COTN would have still sounded like that without Vinnie's influence and all the songs and time spent together. You bring up that they had other songs on COTN that Vinnie didn't write.

"I'm a Legend Tonight" Paul Stanley, Adam Mitchel
"Partners in Crime" Stanley, Mitchell

COMPARE ADAM MITCHELL SONGS before and After Vinnie. After Vinnie came in and wrote and influenced them, Adam's songs actually had some balls which were sorely lacking before. And look at the wuss songs Adam was writing later with KISS (Crazy Nights, songs for Silent Rage with Bruce and others)

"Creatures of the Night" Paul Stanley, Adam Mitchell
"Keep Me Comin'" Stanley, Mitchell
"Down on Your Knees" Stanley, Mikel Japp, Bryan Adams

About the only time Adam wrote with any balls is when Vinnie was in the picture.




"Down on Your Knees" Stanley, Mikel Japp, Bryan Adams
But what did they sound like prior to that and the Vinnie influence


Original Version of R&R Hell


"Rock and Roll Hell" Simmons, Bryan Adams, Jim Vallance



Once again, I think COTN would have sounded almost exactly like "Killers" if not for Vinnie. Many KISS fans have said KISS would not have survived if that were the case. No Ace. No record deal. And if KISS had put out 3 duds in a row with no promise at all, why would Polygram bother keeping them? Adios KISS.

[VVArchives]

Vinnie wasn't around for the track creatures of the night and that doesn't sound like killers.

Yes Vinnie great on creatures and has huge impact but the sound and heaviness not down to vv. The producer said vv was if anything too melodic. The heavy sound came from production and engineering not Vinnie .

Taking nothing from Vinnie but the overall sound not Vinnie but the epic i still love you is a highlight of kiss history

Nobody said he was around for the track on "Creatures".

What Michael Jackson says really doesn't matter. He can't remember most of anything. He's also not going to give Vinnie the credit he deserves because he wants to take the credit for COTN and LIU.

MJJ also lied about the solo on Exciter. Vinnie was too melodic and he couldn't get it so we had Rick do it. Sure Michael. Too bad most people had already heard Vinnie's version and know the truth.

And we know where MJJ was headed. We've all heard Killers. Too bad Michael wasn't asked what determines the direction and sound of an album. It's always the songwriting. And too many KISS fans always go, he only had 3 songs. They forget all the other songs that were recorded for the album. Not to mention how many were written (and not even recorded).

Just like Vinnie set the tone for COTN and LIU, he did the same with Revenge. But some Kiss fans act like, oh it all Ezrin and before that MJJ.

[shramiac]

We have to remember that MJJ was still an employed contractor for Gene & Paul. How many times did they override any of MJJ's choices? I can imagine on Killers they would have been a fair bit of "No, we don't want to do it that way!" MJJ was new to them and wasn't known for producing Hard Rock albums, so I'd bet my left nut that it happened quite a bit. Then as they liked what he was capable of doing, they got him back for the next two albums......then Paul stole all he could of MJJ and did it himself on Animalize & Asylum!
Ezrin on the other hand was well known to KISS and had a huge reputaion. Revenege IS a great sounding album. Unholy was great, I Just Wanna is alright but I was never a big fan of Heart of Chrome. I find the vocal melody annoying.
It would be interesting to hear the other songs Vinnie said he wrote. Maybe, just maybe he could record them himself at home with a home recording software setup like many people do these days. He's well versed in drum machine programming, so there's half the album done! But many of us have been saying that for years........

That said, Vinnie was a fire up their asses! Vinnie and Eric combined got the band out of their funk.


CotN is better than LIU...fun fact.