No Vinnie, Huge Problem

[Luxor]

https://www.kissfaq.com/forum24/viewtop ... 867271061f

Its so ridiculous to act like KISS had no problems because Kiss hd1 demo of HOF a month after Vinnie refused to return. Paul certainly wasnt operating at 100%. That's why the album is viewed as a huge letdown from "Lick It Up"

Its obvious why Gene kept trying to get Vinnie back. Gene knew it didn't have the goods. He knew Mark wasn't delivering.

Still hilarious to see losers bash those Vinnie songs he had for Viimalize. They act like the arrangements would have been the same, even though their is audio proof to the contrary.

Animalize is really weak. It sold on the backs of the last 2 Kiss albums. Shipped 1M because of ""Lick It Up" album. LIU had already surpassed 1M sold prior to Animalizes release. Kiss didn't have it certified Platinum until years later, just like COTN (gold) because Vinnie had sued for unpaid royalties and had kept KISS from being paid BMI/ ASCAP.

Vinimalize would have been amazing. Kiss would have been back in the big leagues. But it wasn't meant to be. After people realized Kiss ws back to average at best with their material, they didnt rush to buy the follow up. Asylum tanked. And later after "Hot In The Shade" tanked worse than "asylum", they had to call back Vinnie to save them yet again.

and Revenge sales blew away HITS sales WW when almost every metal band saw huge sales declines from their late 89/90 releases. Slaughter saw their sales plummet by almost 80%.

Vinimalize could have sold 4M easily. And Vinnie's Revenge could have probably done 1.5M+ instead of 850K (US). But they would have needed to use at least 6 or more Vinnie sogs on it and Vinnie would have had to taken Gene up on his offer to play on Revenge.

Kiss was so destructive to themselves. Jealousy and terrible business minds back then.


KISS LICK IT UP 40th

https://shopkissonline.com/collections/lick-it-up

[VinnieFan]

You couldn’t be more correct!!

[Genebaby]

It's true, but Animalize was not all that bad, it's wasn't trash, people did like it, as did I, and I still do. If you don't like things KISS have done, that's fine, but many people do like the things you don't, so you can't just put out a blanket statement that it all sucked. What KISS were doing the whole time, was trying. Revenge was not that great, the tour could have gone a lot better and the failure put them in a strange place for the next few years, no albums, or tours, just strange shows and appearances, and finally a return to Australia as they had nothing better to do, and brought the HITS stage, which was cool.

Technically, Revenge set the stage for KISS to do the reunion, such was it's failure to bring them back to prominance.

I wish it had done down differently. That they could have stuck it out with Vinnie and produced some fantastic music, and eventually, maybe not even after the next LP with Vinnie, getting back to the top, with so many strong albums, rather than chasing trends of other successful bands. Bands that used to open for them!

[Luxor]

It's true, but Animalize was not all that bad, it's wasn't trash, people did like it, as did I, and I still do. If you don't like things KISS have done, that's fine, but many people do like the things you don't, so you can't just put out a blanket statement that it all sucked. What KISS were doing the whole time, was trying. Revenge was not that great, the tour could have gone a lot better and the failure put them in a strange place for the next few years, no albums, or tours, just strange shows and appearances, and finally a return to Australia as they had nothing better to do, and brought the HITS stage, which was cool.

Technically, Revenge set the stage for KISS to do the reunion, such was it's failure to bring them back to prominance.

I wish it had done down differently. That they could have stuck it out with Vinnie and produced some fantastic music, and eventually, maybe not even after the next LP with Vinnie, getting back to the top, with so many strong albums, rather than chasing trends of other successful bands. Bands that used to open for them!

Animalize was very very average. That's why their sales plunged with their next one. Its ok to say KISS put out alot of mediocre garbage. They did.

Revenge outsold HITS WW. Not even close. HITS sold so poorly the label was doing market research trying to figure out why nobody was buying a KISS album.

Had HITS come out when Revenge did, there most likely would have been no US tour and the album would have been lucky to sell 250,000 copies.

Maybe you also forget, KISS put off the start of the tour. Another huge thing which hurt them.

What actually set the tone for the reunion is KISS couldn't do a follow up to Revenge. Without Vinnie there to guide them, what did they do? They put out "Kiss My Ass" (which tanked even though it had the biggest singer in the world on it). Horrible marketing from KISS on that one.

Kiss didn't even attempt to go back into the studio for a follow up to Revenge until after the reunion was already set. Kiss didn't have it in them to do another record.

Blame KISS for not having the goods without Vinnie around. And look at the garbage they've put out without Vinnie around. Just crap albums "Psycho Circus" "Sonic Shit" "Monster". Utter crap.

Kiss would have been far better off (although their egos wouldn't) just taking all those Vinnie/KISS 1991 penned songs and put that out as an album.

[Genebaby]

HITS era was a struggle, with only Forever being popular allowing the tour to take shape, but when it did, what a tour. Besides the decent opening acts, the stage and songs were great. Revenge built on that, another great stage setup, but lackluster ticket sales sadly. Vinnie didn't help them sell big when others weren't selling. KISS were on the not selling as much list too.

[Luxor]

HITS era was a struggle, with only Forever being popular allowing the tour to take shape, but when it did, what a tour. Besides the decent opening acts, the stage and songs were great. Revenge built on that, another great stage setup, but lackluster ticket sales sadly. Vinnie didn't help them sell big when others weren't selling. KISS were on the not selling as much list too.

Forever had pretty little to do with the tour. The opening acts had everything to do with that tour. What does Julian Gill call "Forever"? He has a name to smear it for being "fake".


There you go spitting on Revenge, which sold far better WW than "HITS" and in a vastly different environment. HITS sales tanked completely. A tour whose success was only because of opening acts that were far outselling KISS.

How did it do lackluster ticket sales? They had no one to carry ticket sales on that one

HITS had a few more thousand per night but HITS relied on Slaughter and Winger for 3,000 or more of those people per night.

Crazy Nights bled a ton of red ink. It was a disaster in terms of ticket sales. They had to bring out Ted Nugent to help salvage that tour and pay big to get him to bring in fans.

The Asylum tour and album did so bad, KISS took a year off.

So I wouldn't trash Revenge, when it did very well considering the time and no opening acts that pulled in anyone. Not to mention, them postponing it. Had they gone out 6 months earlier like they were supposed to, it would have even done better.

And the $1M Doc Hilson (Paul's former shrink) stole from KISS .... came from the tour profits from the UK tour on Revenge.


Of course for KISS, they had nowhere to go after Revenge because they didn't have the goods. And they've never put out anything decent since then.

[Genebaby]

I'm not trashing anything, just putting things in perspective. Asylum didn't do so bad that they took a year off, they took the year off to wait for the producer they wanted. The gamble didn't pay off and Ted Nugent was not that big in 87/8, but he was was something. Otherwise he might have helped sell more tickets, that tour didn't to great.

[Luxor]

I'm not trashing anything, just putting things in perspective. Asylum didn't do so bad that they took a year off, they took the year off to wait for the producer they wanted. The gamble didn't pay off and Ted Nugent was not that big in 87/8, but he was was something. Otherwise he might have helped sell more tickets, that tour didn't to great.

They took a year off to wait for Nevison because Asylum did so poorly. If Animalize had been a great album, Asylum would have easily shipped Platinum. But Animalize wasn't that good and Asylum was an even far weaker album.

They gambled with "Crazy Nights" and that gamble didn't work at all. They were furious at how bad it did. They even trashed their own label (and then had to apologize).

That tour was a disaster. And it was yet another tour where it was almost cancelled before it started. So much money lost on that tour. All the cost cutting that had to be done so they could stay on the road.

KISS was probably seen in more double or triple the number of homes just 4 years earlier (MTV) and yet, it certainly wasn't paying off for them at all.

Ted Nugent blew kiss off the stage that tour. Just like WASP blew KISS off the stage during Asylum. Shame WASP didn't draw them more fans