mark st john private interview 12-17-88

[ankh]

ther e ar e a couple of Vinnie references as well...

[drmoorejr]

I was (for years) led to believe that Mark St. John was a gimmick guitarist... Paul used to say that Mark Couldn't play the same thing twice. Well now that I have been educated I find that Paul is flinging mud and doesn't even know what he is saying. Mark St. John was an improviser, and he could solo around chords, not just running along scales.. A good guitar solo should still sound like its a part of the song, (Unlike the extended solo in KISS Alive II version of "Shock Me"). "Ashes to Ashes" by Vinnie is a good solo (no, it's a great solo), its very melodic, or the solo in "Over You". Mark St. John was playing what he was told, but the solo's Paul wanted were never very musical, but were just a mirror of the trend of the times (shredding), why memorize a solo that not a part of the song? Listen to Joe Pass' solos, oh better yet and more specifically, listen to Grant Green's solo in his version of "My Favorite Things", that's a fucking great solo that sounds like it fits in the song, that is Mark's background (Jazz), he was influenced by Allen Holdsworth. Great solos should not only fit the song, but reflect the current mood, meaning they can very well be different depending on the day of the week while still fitting the song.

[Slayer]

I was (for years) led to believe that Mark St. John was a gimmick guitarist... Paul used to say that Mark Couldn't play the same thing twice. Well now that I have been educated I find that Paul is flinging mud and doesn't even know what he is saying. Mark St. John was an improviser, and he could solo around chords, not just running along scales.. A good guitar solo should still sound like its a part of the song, (Unlike the extended solo in KISS Alive II version of "Shock Me"). "Ashes to Ashes" by Vinnie is a good solo (no, it's a great solo), its very melodic, or the solo in "Over You". Mark St. John was playing what he was told, but the solo's Paul wanted were never very musical, but were just a mirror of the trend of the times (shredding), why memorize a solo that not a part of the song? Listen to Joe Pass' solos, oh better yet and more specifically, listen to Grant Green's solo in his version of "My Favorite Things", that's a fucking great solo that sounds like it fits in the song, that is Mark's background (Jazz), he was influenced by Allen Holdsworth. Great solos should not only fit the song, but reflect the current mood, meaning they can very well be different depending on the day of the week while still fitting the song.

Great Post!

[Luxor]

One doesn't know how much to believe from Mark and how much he is bullshitting.

His stories change alot depending. He's alot like Robert Fleishman in that respect. Also, he thinks way too much of himself (like Robert).


I do think he and Bruce never should have been in the band. Neither had what it took. Neither one of them could write songs. Bruce had zero stage presence.

And Mark couldn't even do all the stuff on Animalize
I did ghost (uncredited) guitar work on two songs. All the solos on “Lonely is the Hunter”, and the tag guitar solo on “Murder in High Heels.” BK


Once again he says he didn't sign his contract until after the album was finished.

Easy to see why Gene kept calling Vinnie every single day to get him to come back.

I remember Peter Criss accusing him of something horrible. Who knows what was true or not.

I'm sure Gene and Paul did treat him horribly. That's them. They can't help themselves.


But all one has to do is listen to White Tiger and one can see Mark is just alot of talk. One of the worst debuts of all time. Horrible songs. Just awful.

[drmoorejr]

One doesn't know how much to believe from Mark and how much he is bullshitting.

His stories change alot depending. He's alot like Robert Fleishman in that respect. Also, he thinks way too much of himself (like Robert).


I do think he and Bruce never should have been in the band. Neither had what it took. Neither one of them could write songs. Bruce had zero stage presence.

And Mark couldn't even do all the stuff on Animalize
I did ghost (uncredited) guitar work on two songs. All the solos on “Lonely is the Hunter”, and the tag guitar solo on “Murder in High Heels.” BK


Once again he says he didn't sign his contract until after the album was finished.

Easy to see why Gene kept calling Vinnie every single day to get him to come back.

I remember Peter Criss accusing him of something horrible. Who knows what was true or not.

I'm sure Gene and Paul did treat him horribly. That's them. They can't help themselves.


But all one has to do is listen to White Tiger and one can see Mark is just alot of talk. One of the worst debuts of all time. Horrible songs. Just awful.

Ability to play guitar and ability to write songs, they do not always go hand and hand.... Michael Angelo Batio, awesome guitarist, no one disputes that, but what about the songs he wrote? Did he write anything by himself?

[drmoorejr]

One doesn't know how much to believe from Mark and how much he is bullshitting.

His stories change alot depending. He's alot like Robert Fleishman in that respect. Also, he thinks way too much of himself (like Robert).


I do think he and Bruce never should have been in the band. Neither had what it took. Neither one of them could write songs. Bruce had zero stage presence.

And Mark couldn't even do all the stuff on Animalize
I did ghost (uncredited) guitar work on two songs. All the solos on “Lonely is the Hunter”, and the tag guitar solo on “Murder in High Heels.” BK


Once again he says he didn't sign his contract until after the album was finished.

Easy to see why Gene kept calling Vinnie every single day to get him to come back.

I remember Peter Criss accusing him of something horrible. Who knows what was true or not.

I'm sure Gene and Paul did treat him horribly. That's them. They can't help themselves.


But all one has to do is listen to White Tiger and one can see Mark is just alot of talk. One of the worst debuts of all time. Horrible songs. Just awful.

Ability to play guitar and ability to write songs, they do not always go hand and hand.... Michael Angelo Batio, awesome guitarist, no one disputes that, but what about the songs he wrote? Did he write anything by himself?

Plus Joe Pass cannot play Van Halen songs (if he was alive), Could Eddie play Joe Pass' songs? Vinnie did mighty fine guitar work, but that did not stop Gene and Paul from using Robben Ford or others on some of Vinnie's songs.... Bruce says what he says, but that is his understanding, without reading Mark's mind. I agree Bruce did not have stage presence that Vinnie or Ace had. Remember music is TOTALLY subjective to the listener's preference.

[Luxor]

One doesn't know how much to believe from Mark and how much he is bullshitting.

His stories change alot depending. He's alot like Robert Fleishman in that respect. Also, he thinks way too much of himself (like Robert).


I do think he and Bruce never should have been in the band. Neither had what it took. Neither one of them could write songs. Bruce had zero stage presence.

And Mark couldn't even do all the stuff on Animalize
I did ghost (uncredited) guitar work on two songs. All the solos on “Lonely is the Hunter”, and the tag guitar solo on “Murder in High Heels.” BK


Once again he says he didn't sign his contract until after the album was finished.

Easy to see why Gene kept calling Vinnie every single day to get him to come back.

I remember Peter Criss accusing him of something horrible. Who knows what was true or not.

I'm sure Gene and Paul did treat him horribly. That's them. They can't help themselves.


But all one has to do is listen to White Tiger and one can see Mark is just alot of talk. One of the worst debuts of all time. Horrible songs. Just awful.

Ability to play guitar and ability to write songs, they do not always go hand and hand.... Michael Angelo Batio, awesome guitarist, no one disputes that, but what about the songs he wrote? Did he write anything by himself?

Plus Joe Pass cannot play Van Halen songs (if he was alive), Could Eddie play Joe Pass' songs? Vinnie did mighty fine guitar work, but that did not stop Gene and Paul from using Robben Ford or others on some of Vinnie's songs.... Bruce says what he says, but that is his understanding, without reading Mark's mind. I agree Bruce did not have stage presence that Vinnie or Ace had. Remember music is TOTALLY subjective to the listener's preference.

Vinnie wasn't a member of the band at that time. And they were auditioning over hundreds of guitar players. Totally different situation.
Who played the majority of the solos on COTN?

I might have expected someone to bring up "Exciter", but that was a case of them having Derringer copy what Vinnie had already done. Derringer didn't really add anything to it, and most say Vinnie's solo on the demo was better. But that didn't have anything to do with Vinnie not being able to play it and more intimidation tactics because he wouldn't sign the "contract from hell".

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if Bruce did lie and tell people he was Mark in interviews etc. I've never taken Bruce as being an "honest guy".

[Luxor]

Ability to play guitar and ability to write songs, they do not always go hand and hand.... Michael Angelo Batio, awesome guitarist, no one disputes that, but what about the songs he wrote? Did he write anything by himself?

MAB co-wrote on the songs on the NITRO debut. Nothing really special on the album.

The problem is KISS desperately needed a songwriter (first) and then a strong willed guitar player who could help lead since Gene and Paul were lost during that time so much.

[drmoorejr]

Vinnie wasn't a member of the band at that time. And they were auditioning over hundreds of guitar players. Totally different situation.
Who played the majority of the solos on COTN?

I might have expected someone to bring up "Exciter", but that was a case of them having Derringer copy what Vinnie had already done. Derringer didn't really add anything to it, and most say Vinnie's solo on the demo was better. But that didn't have anything to do with Vinnie not being able to play it and more intimidation tactics because he wouldn't sign the "contract from hell".

Also, I wouldn't be shocked if Bruce did lie and tell people he was Mark in interviews etc. I've never taken Bruce as being an "honest guy".

I wasn't implying Bruce lied, I was suggesting that he was going by what he assumed to be a reason he was asked to provide overdubbed parts. I suspect Mark St. John's hand issue started before most people realized.

The Demo version of Excite and the album version have hardly any differences, I agree. What about "I Still Love You"? I'd like to know the reason for that one... Robben Ford is a good guitarist, not schooled formally like Michael Angelo Batio, but still has a great feel for melody. The best solo hands down on COTN was "Saint And Sinner", that was and is a masterpiece of a solo, and a great song.

[Genebaby]

That is so strange, that you guys both think the album version of Exciter solo sounds pretty much the same as what Vinnie did in the demo. They are very different to me, and I just went and checked. The demo version sounds like that, a demo version and the solo doesn't seem to fit the song, it's just there hold a place. The solo on the album, with whatever is going on sounds amazing. I've written it before but I loved that solo, imagining Vinnie playing it for years, and was crushed when I did find out it was played by Rick.

Whoever played it, it is a lot better than the demo. If that was what Vinnie intended to play I can see why they wanted to change it. Would I have known it needed to be better, considering the great lead work on the rest of the album, probably not as I haven't made any albums like KISS had so I may have let it slide, but however it happened, the solo on the album is a triumph in a triumph of a song.

[shramiac]

I don't mind Vinnie's solo tbh but as GB said, they are completely different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnie_Vincent


"I was (for years) led to believe that Mark St. John was a gimmick guitarist... Paul used to say that Mark Couldn't play the same thing twice"

Yes Paul is full of it. You don't get to a technical level of playing like Mark had, by just being a random player. Lots of repetition to get to that level. I dig the solos on Animalize actually.

What would be cool for Mark's legacy would be if someone could get a hold of his isolated tracks (post KISS I'm referring to) and re-amp them to give him a better tone.

[ankh]

Probably Mark was ona session player salary for the recording. Thne he was provided with the same kind of contract Kiss tried to sign Vinne with.Same for BK.

About Animalize, it would been interesting to hear the tracks he recorded with the engineer.He did told that was specifically asked "play like Ace would do it",(more pentatonic scales) he also played bass and sang backing vocals.

About the solos he was replaced on,Paul had a very specific parameters for it, and that's why BK and himself played on those tracks( ON GAYCT, Paul played the last bit the bending note).Also Mark was running back and forth between the two studios G&P played on at the the same time.so the re was no time to do all at once.

The solos were tracked down using Rockman sustainor,but the double trakcing and the eq made it less apparent,sound wise.

Never understood Bruce fascination for it(you cna hear it on CN) and also live.

Personally best Bruce tone at the time was on his instructional vid( funnily enough,he did use a Randall m 80, same amp VIvian Campbell played with in his instructional vid).

Whatever you may think about Mark as guitarist(in that aspect,he was very respected by his peers),the big mistake was done by G&P, when they chose someone who had different background, music wise, and also a different style.If you want a specific kind of player,you go for it.Mark couldnì't help but be himself, music wise.

I also think that he wanted to play different music but he tried to break in with hard rock on the strength of the Kiss fame, the white tiger songs weren't anything special to talk home about,the prduction was horrible(yes ,even the remix),and the singer didnìt help,may he rest in peace.

I have both his solo albums( the EP and the MBT),and i think the budget didn't let the different sounds shine.

It would be fun to use a program to hear the spearate tracks -like shrmaniac suggested-since often many parts were buried in the mix.
Once again he went through the hard rock/guitar hero route, and i think his records don't show his true potential.
The solo he played on Kevin tamplin record was very nice.

Also interesting would be to watch his instructional vid,but i don't think that will ever happen.

I've read good stories and bad stories about Mark, but i prefer to abstain to comment on them, since he passed away.

Never understood why G&P were upset by someone who was doing all those moves onstage, it would have enhanced the performance, without substracting the attention on them.Well, their band,their choices , including the funny and sad stories about what he was supposed to wear, eat and way he should have walked with.

[drmoorejr]

That is so strange, that you guys both think the album version of Exciter solo sounds pretty much the same as what Vinnie did in the demo. They are very different to me, and I just went and checked. The demo version sounds like that, a demo version and the solo…

I haven’t listened to it in years, so I could be wrong, but basically the song was mostly on changed to me back then, maybe I did not pay attention to the solo. Solos that are memorable to me are melodic solos, like ‘Love Kills’, ‘Ecstasy’, from KISS, solos like ‘Detroit Rock City’….,

[Genebaby]

Most solos are memorable to me. I may not be able to play them all on the guitar, but on the air-guitar? Yes I can!

[drmoorejr]

That is so strange, that you guys both think the album version of Exciter solo sounds pretty much the same as what Vinnie did in the demo. They are very different to me, and I just went and checked. The demo version sounds like that, a demo version and the solo…

I haven’t listened to it in years, so I could be wrong, but basically the song was mostly on changed to me back then, maybe I did not pay attention to the solo. Solos that are memorable to me are melodic solos, like ‘Love Kills’, ‘Ecstasy’, from KISS, solos like ‘Detroit Rock City’….,

I meant to say "unchanged".... I mean the song really wasn't much different... and as busy as I have been I still haven't gone back and listened to the demo version (again) I will though. But as I stated above I am more into melodic solos, solos around the chords, not just scale runs (as another guy stated above)... Ace was mostly a pentatonic scale solo guy, nothing wrong with it, but it sure means limited options.... Unless you are SRV.

[drmoorejr]

by the way a guy named Jens Larsen showed a really cool arpeggio exercise that you can do playing all the 7th chords in each key all in one position, I am going to started learning and practicing it.

[Genebaby]

Oh yes, the song Exciter was pretty much the same in demo form, it was only the solo that was very different, Rick did not ape anything Vinnie did, and the solo Vinnie did seemed unformed. Better than I could do for sure, but not quite there yet. Whatever transpired and however he did it, Rick played a great one for the album release.

[Luxor]

One good take on the interview. I couldn't make out alot of it. So I missed some of what he brought up.

I do think Mark and Bruce were both terribly wrong for the band.



Diss » Sun Jul 09, 2023 9:37 am
Mark was clueless and didn't seem very likable in these interviews. He also didn't seem very smart. You hear him call Jean Beavoir "the colored guy" in a different interview and then here, when talking about watching a Michael Jackson concert, he says, "You can really see the fag-ism when watching him," lol. I mean, come on. Amazing he was ever asked to be in the band. KISS was clearly clueless as well.

He also seems pretty bitter about Bruce, saying Bruce was a puppet. At one point he pretends to be Gene or Paul saying, "Hey, Bruce, suck my dick," and then he responds as Bruce saying, "Ok, boss."

I saw him in Baltimore. Thought he was totally wrong for the band and sounded and looked terrible, especially how he wore his guitar way up high. He talks in this interview about why he did that, to have better dexterity, but that's not the kind of band KISS ever was.

RIP, but he was lucky to even get the chance he got.

[Genebaby]

Any kind of thoughts Mark may have had in that way towards other people/races, wouldn't have been obvious at the start when all that mattered was could he play, and did he look ok, and what's a cool name for this new guy?

Getting the band going again is a bit like finding a girl really quick to marry and move in together. When you have to do it like that you do take pot luck on the personality you're going to get and how that will gel over time.

You make a judgement call, they would have done it with everyone, starting with Eric, and I've done it too. A big thing when I am auditioning someone for my band is, do I want to hang out with this person? I usually make that decision at that first meeting and if we pick the person I hope it turned out right.

Of course nobody is gonna spout racist stuff and things of that nature at the first meeting, but I also don't have to live with my band members on a tour and stuck in a studio, just some rehearsal and the gigs we do. That is enough for me to nix someone I don't want to hang with at all, let alone have to be in close quarters with for many months of the year.

Mark was lucky he got the chance he did, it elevated him above so many other players on the scene but ultimitaley he didn't have the talent for songs, but he really could play.

Vinnie was the triple threat, writing, singing and playing, plus stage moves!

[metatron]

[metatron]

[metatron]

[drmoorejr]

... how he wore his guitar way up high. He talks in this interview about why he did that, to have better dexterity, but that's not the kind of band KISS ever was.

I never understood why some worry about how another holds his guitar... The music that comes from the instrument matters more than the image. Plenty of great guitarists hold the guitar higher up. Allen Holdsworth is a perfect example.

[Luxor]

Any kind of thoughts Mark may have had in that way towards other people/races, wouldn't have been obvious at the start when all that mattered was could he play, and did he look ok, and what's a cool name for this new guy?

Getting the band going again is a bit like finding a girl really quick to marry and move in together. When you have to do it like that you do take pot luck on the personality you're going to get and how that will gel over time.

You make a judgement call, they would have done it with everyone, starting with Eric, and I've done it too. A big thing when I am auditioning someone for my band is, do I want to hang out with this person? I usually make that decision at that first meeting and if we pick the person I hope it turned out right.

Of course nobody is gonna spout racist stuff and things of that nature at the first meeting, but I also don't have to live with my band members on a tour and stuck in a studio, just some rehearsal and the gigs we do. That is enough for me to nix someone I don't want to hang with at all, let alone have to be in close quarters with for many months of the year.

Mark was lucky he got the chance he did, it elevated him above so many other players on the scene but ultimitaley he didn't have the talent for songs, but he really could play.

Vinnie was the triple threat, writing, singing and playing, plus stage moves!

I doubt his horrible views on race and other matters would have mattered that much.

Could anyone top Ace and Peter (Peter not so much now) for racism etc? Ace is a Nazi lover. He pretty much gets a past for his abhorrent views.

What's worse, Paul tells these stories on people, but he fails to acknowledge how he did nothing back in the day. Like him seeing their manager with young, young boys. And Paul does nothing. Paul said nothing back in the day. Let the guy continue. But had to mention it in his book.

Same with Peter and Mark and the alleged kiddie porn. Peter didn't say GTFO you sick SOAB. No, he just mentions it in his book.