Kiss What if’s - Vinnie on Animalize???

metalmike76 · Post by **metalmike76** » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:10 am

I did a cool podcast last month where I brought in the “Kiss Wizard” Bob Nash and we talked about the following:
Would still having Vinnie on Animalize make it better....
What went wrong with the Elder and all the unreleased footage from that era...
Did Kiss almost have a 1979 Cartoon? Gene Simmons says yes.....
Check it out.....

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:28 pm

Great show. I agree and think so much the same.

I've thought for a long time, and surely mentioned it here, KISS with Vinnie could have ruled the 80's metal scene. LIU was so strong, it would have been a great base to re-build their career from strength to strengh.

I did download the play of The Elder from the 90's once, but I couldn't watch it. Just didn't care enough once I saw it, but cool that someone filmed it.

Mikelangelo · Post by **Mikelangelo** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:58 am

The Elder? You mean there actually is footage or the actual film? Never seen any of that...

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:00 am

No, no, there was a school play of The Elder in the 90's. How bizarre is that? That was mentioned in the podcast and I was like, I had that, but couldn't be bothered watching it. I think it was hard to hear etc.

Mikelangelo · Post by **Mikelangelo** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:04 am

Ah, right!!! I thought they actually filmed something. Did they have a script made or was it all just an idea? Can't remember. But I like The Elder-album!!!

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 am

The Elder was some ideas that grew into the album, that if you listen had bad ideas on top of bad ideas. Not only had KISS diluted their appeal in America since Dynasty, the new album was even weirder, and didn't even feature the band, which was a strange thing for KISS fans of the time to understand. So the small fan base they had left got alienated more.

Of course in hindsight, people do like the album, but it really killed the band off.

Interestingly, I just got some Dynasty demos and Only You is on there. It is a bit different lyrically but it's the same song, it just got re-worked for The Elder.

VinnieFan · Post by **VinnieFan** » Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:15 pm

Definitely...
Let’s face it, the titles of all the songs are ideas from Vinnie during their time together on the road, throwing ideas off each other....
VINNIE absolutely influenced Animalize. It would have been a great album if Vinnie’s tone / technique was on it. It’s a rather weak album overall... some high points but, eh

To me, it sounds like Mark St. John was plugged into a Rockman belt pack straight into the sound board.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:04 am

Isn't a Rockman straight into the desk the sound of many guitars from the 80's? Aside from Mr Rockman himself in Boston, by the 80's it was in huge demand and Def Leppard had it all over Hysteria.

VinnieFan · Post by **VinnieFan** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:40 pm

And Hysteria was an awful sounding album.
VINNIE never recorded with a Rockman on LIU / COTN / VVI

Yes, it was in huge demand... it was a great tool to practice with late at night and not disturb everyone sleeping.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:34 pm

Oh man, I think Hysteria sounds awesome. The music and production are just top notch. Sounded like a pain to make, but gee, it was worth the effort and the wait.

Maybe Mark was using a Rockman, from all reports he was going back and forth between studios. It would have been ideal to just bring that with him. Too bad we can't ask him to clarify, unless it's in an interview I haven't seen, or have forgotten about.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:37 pm

And come to think of it, the biggest tragedy and travesty about the VVI albums are the drums on the first album. Shit but it would have been amazing to hear the original monster drums that Bobby recorded, before they were reduced to the shitty sound and feel we ended up with.

Reading about what happened it cleared up what the hell was going on with that album, but also made it all the more sad that there was brilliance that was lost. Oh what could have been!

VinnieFan · Post by **VinnieFan** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:27 pm

Bobby Rock did go through hell.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:10 pm

Yeah, the poor kid.

Like Eric Carr dealing with The Elder, just doing his best and what was asked of him.

tukoztukoz · Post by **tukoztukoz** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:16 pm

I wonder if « the log into your fireplace » lyrics are from Vinnie. Unforgettable metaphor !

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:35 am

Ha ha, I think that line is typical Gene!!!

tukoztukoz · Post by **tukoztukoz** » Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:13 am

So just like the « hot knife through butter « a year before. Gene is a poet!

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:03 am

Oh yeah, Gene writes from the heart!

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:26 am

Genebaby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:03 am Oh yeah, Gene writes from the heart!

His crotch you mean

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:59 am

That's where his heart is!!!

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:00 am

A lot of beating goes on in both area!

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:30 am

Oh no!!!!!

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:59 am

metatron wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:26 am
Genebaby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:03 am Oh yeah, Gene writes from the heart!
His crotch you mean

shramiac wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:00 am A lot of beating goes on in both area!

Genebaby wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:30 amOh no!!!!!

VVArchives · Post by **VVArchives** » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:35 am

VinnieFan wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:15 pm Definitely...
Let’s face it, the titles of all the songs are ideas from Vinnie during their time together on the road, throwing ideas off each other....
VINNIE absolutely influenced Animalize. It would have been a great album if Vinnie’s tone / technique was on it. It’s a rather weak album overall... some high points but, eh

To me, it sounds like Mark St. John was plugged into a Rockman belt pack straight into the sound board.

I would have loved to have heard the Kiss version of "Animal", "Twisted", "Do You Wanna Make Love" and others.

It sounds exactly like a Vinnie album except with bad songwriting (for the most part).

Mikelangelo · Post by **Mikelangelo** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:47 am

I've been listening to those two bootlegs that exist with Mark St. John, from late 1984. I have to say that I don't like his live playing at all... Vinnie may have gone over the top on his solo-spots too, but he played the solos in the songs better, like they fitted better. Ace Frehley had his stamp all over KISS-material of 1970s, so KISS were looking for something else after Ace... I think.

Post by **Genebaby** » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:02 am

I get what you're saying. Nothing against Mark, as he was an amazing player, but he did like to improvise, but I'm sure in the studio he could work better than Paul's description of "he was just puking notes"....the guy was doing his best serving two masters in an era of crazy guitar playing that KISS did want to be a part of.

He maybe didn't have as much time to work on the live stuff due to his injury, which would count against him compared to Bruce. A player like Mark can get through the gig on pure talent and play a solo when it's needed, maybe not the exact one, but it will fit the song. Given more time, he surely could have played it more to the original, but then Bruce was allowed to change the solos quite a bit, to be more modern. He even changed Vinnie's stuff on the LIU tracks, probably as he couldn't replicate it, but he did his own version.

Mikelangelo · Post by **Mikelangelo** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:56 am

Yes, I like Mark's stuff on Animalize, which I thought was great when it came out and I still listen to it.
Maybe in a way, since KISS unmasked themselves when 1980s metal/glam/hard-rock was rearing it's head, they got sidestepped by a lot of bands. And on the other hand, maybe their masked heydays were so fit for the 1970s, that when they returned in their masked glory in 1996, that was the only change they got,- to boost their fortunes and raise their success...

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:31 am

For KISS in the 80's, the best thing about losing Ace, despite him being an original and the damage that can do, was that they coulld get someone more modern, which they obviously did a few times.

And yes, by the mid 90's, there was renewed interest in the 70's KISS, which was not there in the early 80's and beyond, so that was their chance to boost their fortunes, and sadly also stick with a formula for their albums, rather than just being the KISS band of the day. That would have been much cooler than trying to be old KISS and not letting their full modern potential shine through.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:36 am

His work on I've Had Enough is perfect for the song.

And I don't buy the "Mark couldn't play the same thing twice" schtick from Paul. If you listen to the demos from Animalize, the solos are very similar to what ended up on the album.

Mark was a Holdsworth fan and you don't get to that kind of playing skill without being dedicated and repetitive in your practise.

Mikelangelo · Post by **Mikelangelo** » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:28 pm

Allan Holdsworth!!! Been listening to him again, it's great to hear that kinda playing, especially when I couldn't play like that at all!!!

TheKissDogrocker · Post by **TheKissDogrocker** » Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:17 am

If Vinnie was on animalize wow it been wow Let them record animalize with Vinnie and have it remastered.

ACK · Post by **ACK** » Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:50 pm

you can actually here vinnies solos on animalive if you speed the solo up to 1.5 speed

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:46 pm

ACK wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:50 pm you can actually here vinnies solos on animalive if you speed the solo up to 1.5 speed

Oof!

Luxor · Post by **Luxor** » Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:36 am

Genebaby wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:28 pm Great show. I agree and think so much the same.

I've thought for a long time, and surely mentioned it here, KISS with Vinnie could have ruled the 80's metal scene. LIU was so strong, it would have been a great base to re-build their career from strength to strengh.

Yes, KISS certainly needed Vinnie during the mid to late 80's. What they "could have been"

VinnieFan · Post by **VinnieFan** » Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:36 pm

I just listened to Animalize again. The album sucks. A couple high points on the album, but it sucks. Gene’s songs are the worst. Mark’s playing is remedial at best. He was actually a novice.
If Vinnie was on this album, and Michael James Jackson was the full On producer, and Gene’s songs cut…It could have been a masterpiece. But it’s not.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:34 pm

Another album with Vinnie and MJM producing would have been great, and then another after that, but it was not to be.

It's funny, but to at least Gene and Paul there is nothing special about LIU, or even Creatures, they are just albums they put out, like Animalize and Asylum. They probably care for Animalize the most as it was most successful. They don't see the differences in LIU, that Vinnie brought, and probably MJM as well. I just love the balanced sound and the guitar and drum tones on that album, such a metal masterpiece.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Mar 02, 2024 12:48 pm

Can't agree with Mark's solos being remedial.

I've Had Enough and Thrills are pretty outstanding.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Mar 02, 2024 6:44 pm

Yeah, he did some good stuff, and he was actually killer as a player, just not the greatest fit for KISS, but he did the best he could and it shows.

strangeways · Post by **strangeways** » Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:14 pm

In a 1996 interview Vinnie Vincent was quoted as saying that he had the following tunes demoed and ready to go for what turned out to be the Animalize record.

Boyz Are Gonna Rock
Shoot U Full of Love
Back on the Streets
Twisted
Animal
I Wanna Be Your Victim
Do You wanna Make Love

Assuming that is true and that they would've all made the album what tunes do you think Gene would've sang and what tunes you you think Paul would've sang?

Also, what tunes would you have liked to have seen the band keep or dump that did end up on Animalize as we now know it? What would your running order track wise of this fantasy Animalize album be?

Here's how I think it would've broken down -

Boyz Are Gonna Rock (Paul vocals)
Shoot U Full of Love (Paul vocals)
Twisted (Gene vocals)
Animal (Gene vocals)
Back on the Streets (Paul vocals)
Do You Wanna Make Love (Paul vocals)
I Wanna Be Your Victim (Paul vocals)

I would've kept

I've Had Enough (Into the Fire)
Heaven's On Fire
Under The Gun
Lonely Is The Hunter
Thrills In The Night

I would've dumped

Burn Bitch Burn
Murder In High Heels
While The City Sleeps
Get All You Can Take

Running order (of course I could and probably will change my mind on this part on a daily basis...)

I've Had Enough (Into the Fire)
Heaven's On Fire
Twisted
Shoot U Full of Love
Lonely Is The Hunter
Under The Gun
Boyz Are Gonna Rock
Animal
Back On The Streets
Thrills In The Night
Do You Wanna Make Love
I Wanna Be Your Victim

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:32 pm

Man, it's soooo hard to hear anybody other than Robert sing those early VVI songs, except for people who also did it in his register/style. So maybe Paul would have to stretch and sing all those? I know Gene can get high, but for a whole song?

If only demos of these with Gene or Paul singing existed.

Who knows of course what Vinnie really had. He was hungry back then, so he may well have had those tunes ready to work on for Animalize.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:17 pm

The only rumour is the one that Paul demoed BotS, isn't it?

All those songs (good choice btw) were probably too long for a KISS album. They would have held some over for the next one.

strangeways · Post by **strangeways** » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:18 am

IF Vinnie had stayed (and I really wish he would have) for at least one more album (Animalize) it would have cemented his true legacy in Kiss.
I believe Animalize w/Vinnie would have soared and done extremely well.
He would have been invincible and taken Kiss to new heights.
The tour would have been great and the filmed version of Animalize live would have been a classic w/Vinnie in it.
The band would have had a real dilemma on their hands at that point.
It would have been obvious who was behind such a comeback and what to do then?
Let the architect of their comeback leave or pay him a fair and equal share to stay.
Most likely, Kiss would have let him walk knowing they had all the songs from Creatures, Lick It Up & Animalize that they could play forever more.
Vinnie would have left and benefited greatly from his stint in Kiss having an actual era wrapped around his little finger to go off and do whatever he wanted to do. It would have been a win win.
Such is life.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Mar 24, 2024 8:41 am

Such is life indeed. KISS probably would still let Vinnie go if he was giving them headaches still, they even let Ace and Peter go in the end as it suited their means and they felt they would be ok without them, and they were right. So they definitely would have parted ways with Vinnie, and as we see with his behaviour in VVI and beyond it was a forgone conclusion.

We need to count ourselves lucky we got what we did already. Vinnie was functioning but hard to work with in the 80's, since then he's become non-functioning and even harder to work with.