The Vinnie Vincent Forum - Where Freedom Rocks!

from Three Sides Of The Coin
Ep. 72 Paul Stanley Face The Music A Life Exposed, Our Thoughts
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Vinnie mentioned @44.40

dannii these guys are funny

For me, the best Kiss line up was Vinnie-era line up.
And I think Vinnie saved Kiss with Lick It Up album although Paul would never agree with that.
Without that album, their career might have tanked.

Paul stays in his line of conduct, he is always right, he knows better that all the world and no never reconnaitra its errors and blether! Without Vinnie's contribution the group would not be more than a souvenir turned yellow in our memory!

kisslolo wrote:Paul stays in his line of conduct, he is always right, he knows better that all the world and no never reconnaitra its errors and blether! Without Vinnie's contribution the group would not be more than a souvenir turned yellow in our memory!

Yes, I agree.
They tried to re-capture the magic of Lick It Up with follow up albums and none of them could touch the pure energy and brilliance of Lick It Up, IMHO.
Contrary to Paul's belief, the heaviness and aggressive metal-leaning guitar playing and composition of Vinnie did a tremendous job saving KISS.

imaginos wrote:

kisslolo wrote:Paul stays in his line of conduct, he is always right, he knows better that all the world and no never reconnaitra its errors and blether! Without Vinnie's contribution the group would not be more than a souvenir turned yellow in our memory!

Yes, I agree.
They tried to re-capture the magic of Lick It Up with follow up albums and none of them could touch the pure energy and brilliance of Lick It Up, IMHO.
Contrary to Paul's belief, the heaviness and aggressive metal-leaning guitar playing and composition of Vinnie did a tremendous job saving KISS.

Amen to that!

JohnnyGtar wrote:

imaginos wrote:

kisslolo wrote:Paul stays in his line of conduct, he is always right, he knows better that all the world and no never reconnaitra its errors and blether! Without Vinnie's contribution the group would not be more than a souvenir turned yellow in our memory!

Yes, I agree.
They tried to re-capture the magic of Lick It Up with follow up albums and none of them could touch the pure energy and brilliance of Lick It Up, IMHO.
Contrary to Paul's belief, the heaviness and aggressive metal-leaning guitar playing and composition of Vinnie did a tremendous job saving KISS.

Amen to that!

You guys are right on the money... You sound like me a couple years ago on this forum...

I will say this again. Vinnie did not add the heaviness to kiss. Vv was playing with the rascals and happy days just before kiss. The heaviness came from the producer Michael james Jackson who was obsessed with eric carr's drum sound and tried out hundreds of mics and mic positions. Vv didn't write too many creatures songs or play on all tunes and the tunes he was not involved in were still heavy.
Vv wrote and played great but heaviness came from producer / engineer and kiss direction choice.

Dino, I believe the heaviness came from Vinnie and was accentuated by MJJ. I truly believe Vinnie inspired the band and the producer.
That drum sound wouldn't have worked with the a lot of the shit Kiss was pumping out prior to writing with Vinnie.

What I am saying is plenty of songs without vv like creatures of the night that were heavy. Also killers not as heavy but heading in direction. Vv had no history at all of being in heavy bands and kiss to.be honest had much more heavy tunes in their history than vinnie.

Michael james Jackson was on the scene before vinnie. He was brought in for the heavy sound he was going to pull from band. I am 100% sure creatures would have been heavy without vv like on songs vv wasnt involved in. Also look at mister mister guitar player, he sounded heavy and also had no history if heary metal.

I think the drums are 50% of heaviness. They sound like recorded in a stalagmite cave or bottom of a well with mic positioned at the top. It was a genius production job to be honest. No half assed generic recording.
I am not saying vv wasnt great or heavy but I will argue all day long he wasn't the reason it was heavy

If Kiss had wanted to do The Elder II, then that's what Vinnie would have played on.

After The Elder though they wanted to be straight ahead heavy, which they started with Killers and continued on Creatures.

The Elder had it's heavy moments but it tanked so no more concept albums.

Funny think I always think of the elder as heavy. The oath, Mr Blackwell, pretty much all gene songs apart from world without hero's but that's very dark. I always think of the elder dark and heavy.

Michael james Jackson has to be credited a whole lot with his engineer for the kick ass in your face recording ideas and techniques. Takes balls to record drums like that and strip it all down.

Imagine any of the other Kiss guitarists on COTN.

NOW admit that Vinnie is the X FACTOR.

Don't forget that Paul is playing on Creatures and LIU, doing the rhythms, which he needs to do live.

There are songs on Creatures that Vinnie didn't even play on, and they replaced one of his solo's on LIU, which I thought was one of his best, and it wasn't him.

The bass, drums and rhythm guitar sets the tone of the song, heavy, or poppy etc. Vinnie's lead work was fantastic, and his song writing was fantastic, but especially on Creatures, where they used a few guitarists, KISS had a vision to record a heavy album, full stop.

They learnt their lesson with Dynasty, Unmasked, and then The Elder. No more messing around.

Would Kiss have been heavy without Vinnie, yes. Maybe not as good though.

Saying that, I love the new songs on Killers, even though Vinnie had nothing to do with them, and Paul has since denounced them. But Paul belittles LIU, in favour of Creatures, so his had is not screwed on right, or he really doesn't want to admit how awesome Vinnie's writing and playing on LIU was.

Vinnie's rhythm work is all over COTN.

As for Derringer's solo on Exciter. I believe Vinnie's solo was a blueprint that Rick copied. Paul was putting his foot in Vinnie's ass for no good reason by taking his solo off the record.

When G&P are left to production, you get mostly turds.

Kiss didn't learn any lesson. They were riding the British NWHM. They quickly became a Pop band again when VH and Duran Duran were Pop stars then tried to get heavy again when Seattle became huge.

I look at Vinnie during that Cherokee Studios interview and see a man that was FORCED to water his music down .
He almost seems disgusted with himself for doing so. Although ASG has some great moments ( some of which hit the floor in radio edits) , I would love to hear Vinnie's version.
Vinnie has shown that trends be damned ,when it is HIS music,he would rather not make music than release a trendy album. RESPECT.

Vinnie delivers quality each time. Kiss has proven that they can't.
My two favorite Kiss albums after 1977 (without Vinnie ) are Music From The Elder(I can visualize the movie) , Asylum(more classic sounding than most will admit),and COS(Because of lyrical honesty).

yes vv delivers but i wouldn't say he is the reason kiss turned heavy. I really don't believe that one bit. a part of it, ok i will accept but not the reason kiss went heavy.
1. kiss had to have decided to go heavy before they ever met vinnie.
2. heavy sound in my opinion down to recording techniques, especially drum sound (credit M.J.J)
3. most of the session players and writers (Ford, Cusano, Bryan Adams, guy from mister mister) including vinnie did not come out of heavy metal bands.

I truthfully think Kiss influenced VV not the other way round when it came to 'Heavy Metal'. VV's solo albums were not heavier than COTN or LIU either.

Kiss followed trends willingly.

Vinnie was beaten down to mellow ASG . He resisted their bullshit after that and was dropped.
Vinnie would rather do nothing than cater to the suits.

Vinnie fucked the label over money wise and went behind their backs so he was dropped.

Genebaby wrote:Vinnie fucked the label over money wise and went behind their backs so he was dropped.

That was the supposed story for the recordings in 1989-90.

Fucking over Chyrsalis with their money lost him his contract to Dana and Mark. He was also looking into other deals. He did that ALL the time, for EVERYTHING. Hence all the one-off VVV guitars from other companies.

Vinnie could not do a deal and stick with it, he was always looking for something better.

Guitars From Hell in my opinion was the best of Vinnie that we have heard so far. Absolutely incredible and over the top!

ok.
1. Chryslais put huge money into VV. The first album didn't make money so they pushed him to go more commercial with ASG and that backfired even more.

2. VV has the ability to make a very commercial record

3. But VV came out with what I would call an epic non commercial record in GFH. Its like he needed to decided. Lots of cash and commercial or a hard sell and doing what he wanted (showing off his skills).

The thing that I believe totally finished VVI off is not having a second video from VVI album (Back on the streets or as Bobby said No Substitiute) would have taken the band to another level. This was down to the issue with RObert. YOu could say that VV's manager was one of the main reasons for that fuck up.

Its hard to know what VV should have done in relation to commercial tamed down music or the Full Shredd stuff. In my opinion he could have had two great bands going at same time. The solo over the top and maybe a band playing more radio friendly. But I could not see the over the top stuff ever making money to be honest as much as I love most of it.

These two, rambling on, are a bore...

Can someone please type out the cliff notes version / highlights of Paul's
book so I don't have to read it.

I want the gossip but without the work, I admit that.