Ezrin, Gene ,and Paul

[poserboy71]

What dicks for replacing this Ace solo. Very cool.
Some cool things in the mix here.
[youtube][/youtube]

[Genebaby]

So this is with Ace on there? I don't like it as much I gotta say.

[PinkWiz]

Damn, I like that solo! I'm sure Ezrin changed it just to teach Ace a lesson. Love that low note @ 1:55...

[poserboy71]

I like it better than what was on the album. Ezrin and the boys were powertripping on Ace. Good solo.

[shramiac]

Not that bad! Nothing fantastic but classic Ace IMO!

[erg2]

The original release version is a lot more "elegant" than Ace's version, which blends with the song stylistically. Part of what I always liked about KISS was the fact that, not being musicians, their sound was built around the limitations of their capabilities. Gene might write a progressive song, but the band could only play to their level of their ability so it would become "KISS-progressive". Thus a signature sound.
When they began adding capable players, that unique sound was diluted by ability. With Vinnie they could sound like a metal band. With Bruce they could sound like almost ANY style. And they did. And in doing so they truly lost what made them sonically unique.

I like Ace's solo better on the premise that it should've been the best they could do....even though the original release version fits the song better.

Example:
I would prefer to hear the Sex Pistols trying to play a country song they wrote as best as their punk capability would allow rather than hearing a bunch of studio musicians make it sound like a true country song. I can hear a true country song anytime I want.

To me, that's the entire point of being in a band. You like the way your music is played with "Performer X". If you do not like what "Performer X" sounds like with your music, fire them and hire a different musician. That almost always results in a more bland, generic sound though.

[Genebaby]

Well put Erg2.

[ankh]

Ace himself said it was an okey-ish solo, and the idea was to record something else later.When Bob decided to cut the track, they couldn't find Ace,but wanted to finish the session quickly, that's why Bob used anothe player.What pissed off Ace was that they-G,P,Bob, didn't even tell him,he discovered that during the final mix listening session.

[Slayer]

What dicks for replacing this Ace solo. Very cool.
Some cool things in the mix here.
[youtube][/youtube]

Do you mean they have replaced Dick Wagners Solo from Destroyer?

[Slayer]

I haven't read about this version but is there any possibility that this new solo is Tommy Thayer? I believe that the version on Destroyer was Dick Wagner trying to play similar to Ace?

[PinkWiz]

Ironic that for all those years in the 80's Gene and Paul were trying to find someone more technical... the furtherest thing from Ace.

Now they have someone playing exactly like Ace.

[Slayer]

Ironic that for all those years in the 80's Gene and Paul were trying to find someone more technical... the furtherest thing from Ace.

Now they have someone playing exactly like Ace.

Your absolutely right! If you can't have the real thing might as well settle for a clone. I've only heard HOH from Monster but I didn't particularly think that Tommy sounded like Ace on that song.

[poserboy71]

I haven't read about this version but is there any possibility that this new solo is Tommy Thayer? I believe that the version on Destroyer was Dick Wagner trying to play similar to Ace?

This was Ace's original solo that was replaced by the DW version.

I like it a Hell of a lot better than DW's solo.

[PinkWiz]

I think Wagner did do a good job of sounding like Ace on his solo.

The outro solo @ 2:43 was Ace all along cause he does it in the middle of his unused solo.

[erg2]

At this point, Gene doesn't want to be in a band, he wants to put out a product. This "product" happens to be a KISS-sounding album. Gene now claims to have always had this attitude, but if you listen to Gene's early work prior to KISS there is no way that could be true. Gene was without a doubt a driven personality and wanted to make money, but in the beginning with KISS he was about creating music first, show second and money third. Now it is just the opposite.

[PinkWiz]

true, success changed gene for the worse (starting about 1978). he had some moments of hunger again (creatures, revenge) but for the most part coud give a shit about new material.

[erg2]

It certainly seems that way. I think this entire new "just the band, record on tape, Gene & Paul write together" thing (which they should've been doing with Ace & Peter for the Psycho Circus album) is all Paul...but Gene loves that he can spin it and call himself a master marketer.

[BigEd]

All of your comments are the truth...The only thing Gene wouldn't spin or sell is his Mother, but give him time !!!

[ankh]

well, his reality show episode where he goes back to isreal and cries over his father grave is quite atrocious.

But he also has done a lot of charity.................

[doublev2]

Yeah. Some people do charity to not pay taxes and some mean it. Hard to know with gene, but what ever he is he is entertaining.

[Slayer]

I've tried to read up on this and I've read references to this being the original recording of Sweet Pain but I have read nothing about this solo being Ace Frehley. The bends sound like Ace but the solo melody line that was played twice doesn't really sound like Ace to me. I'm in no way saying that it isn't Ace but merely stating that it would be uncharacteristic for Ace to play a melody such as this. Let's see what information comes out and as we all know Kiss has always tried to be discrete about who played on what. I like this solo to Sweet Pain.

[doublev2]

Not sure if this helps . some kissfaq about vv is not correct though.
http://www.kissfaq.com/KissFAQ-wiki/ind ... at_On_What

[doublev2]

The creatures thing is wrong. Bob didn't play on the record and vv said he played on keep me comin.

[erg2]

I don't think we'll ever have a definitive story on who played on what song for how much with the Creatures album. I think the situation was chaotic. They had so many people coming in and out. So many guitarists trying to get the spot, recording solos just to see if it sounded better than what they have and trying to get the right feel. It's a mess.

[Slayer]

Not sure if this helps . some kissfaq about vv is not correct though.
http://www.kissfaq.com/KissFAQ-wiki/ind ... at_On_What

Thanks Dino!

[jesternjeff]

The creatures thing is wrong. Bob didn't play on the record and vv said he played on keep me comin.

Yeah but, VV also said he helped work on the solo for Unholy too which most of you know aint true. LOL

[doublev2]

True. Vv said he did the solo for keep me comin and then got hired that evening while at Kennedy airport. I dont bieve the story but maybe its true and maybe keep me comin solo is true.

[poserboy71]

I honestly believe that Vinnie at least played on the demo and INSPIRED Bruce's phrasing /note choices during his solo.

As for ANYTHING off of COTN, I think Vinnie played a lot of rhythm guitar on that album. We always just speak of the solos. There are a lot of Vinnie-isms in the rhythm playing on that album.

[PinkWiz]

I honestly believe that Vinnie at least played on the demo and INSPIRED Bruce's phrasing /note choices during his solo.

True... and you know Vinnie's not gonna leave out the solo, even on a demo. I always thought the Unholy solo sounded like one Vinnie would've played on the LIU album... so, hmmmm.

[doublev2]

Well we know that Gene loved Vinnie musically (certainly as a song writer) so he could have been pushing Bruce in the Vinnie direction. The thing is it seems if VV hadn't of sued kiss 14 times he may well still have stood a chance of working with them on and off.

[erg2]

I remember in one of the videos Gene said something about Bruce was required to play like his job depended on it, because his job DID depend on it. I'm just wondering if...even for the briefest of moments...Gene and Paul might've been considering bringing Vinnie back as lead guitarist. I know there are rumors that at one point Vinnie was subtly suggesting to Gene and Paul that Bruce wasn't cutting it.

Here's how I imagine it...Vinnie runs into Gene at studio. Gives him load of BS about how sorry he is about what happened. They get together to write and, obviously, it goes along pretty well. Vinnie, understanding that his record deal is crap and about to fall apart thinks he can improve his profile again and earn some cash by getting back into KISS. At first Gene is intrigued because of how well the songwriting is and how weak-sauce Bruce has been on the last few albums. Vinnie starts getting a little pushier and Gene starts feeling the old "Vinnie is a pain in the ass vibe" so he tells Vinnie that he only is needed for songwriting. Vinnie realizes his scheme to rejoin KISS is failing, so he starts angling to get more money for his songwriting contribution and get more songs on the album. When Gene won't negotiate, things fall apart completely.

Vinnie sues.

Vinnie starts out nice, ends up a dick.

[PinkWiz]

Yeah I remember Vinnie saying something in the late 90's like "Gene kept talking about how sick of Bruce's playing that he was" while recording Revenge and also how bad KISS treated Eric Carr when he was on his death bed, etc. etc. Vinnie at the time said "it would all be revealed in his book" or something along those lines.

I could see Gene entertaining the idea of Vinnie rejoining Kiss and Paul shooting that idea down fast.

[erg2]

...I really don't think.kiss ever considered bringing vinnie back. I do know that vv demanded more money than first agreed while writing hearts of chrome and other things . The were going to write more songs with him until that happened. Also lots of stuff vv was saying about kiss got back to them.

Yeah I remember Vinnie saying something in the late 90's like "Gene kept talking about how sick of Bruce's playing that he was" while recording Revenge...I could see Gene entertaining the idea of Vinnie rejoining Kiss and Paul shooting that idea down fast.

@doubleV2: I'm really not trying to say that KISS was really entertaining the idea of bringing Vinnie back in as lead guitarist. I guess I'm more saying, maybe Gene briefly considered it...maybe made an off-hand remark to Vinnie...and Vinnie started thinking he might have a shot at getting back into the BIG TIME. I don't know exactly how it truly all went down, but the overall result was Vinnie demanding more money for his songwriting.

@PinkWiz: That is exactly what I'm talking about. I read an interview where Vinnie claimed Gene was sick of Bruce's playing on Revenge. THEN you have a quote from Gene (keeping in mind he always uses hyperbole) where he says Bruce's job depended upon his playing on Revenge.

I guess I'm using the coincidences to create a fantasy "what if THIS is what happened" scenario...but it does seem like something that conceivably COULD happen with Vinnie and KISS during that time period.