Hey Vinnie - Julien's Auction

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon May 25, 2015 9:41 am

Lets be real, we don't really know that much about the guitars and we can all agree that it is one of our biggest disappointments that we haven't been able to garner the info from Vinnie.

To me the only one that, in my opinion (and a few other's), that is a 99% chance of being what it "should be" is the Cardiff/Pattaya guitar. There are enough pictures of it over the years (and in different colours) where the 7th & 9th inlays show some swirly patterns that can't be attributed to lighting or camera flash flare. It would be impossible to recreate the natural patterns in the MoP and it also has the fret nibs on the neck binding which is period correct...but as I said, that's just what I think. I've never seen it in any incarnation.

The white hard tail is definitely an old guitar but with the headstock logo being from 83/84 and with no photos of it being played, it's a fair guess it wasn't given to Vinnie pre Creature's tour. As we know, Vinnie did get a black hardtail that he used on the CoTN tour....maybe as its now 33 years (

) since he got given them, memories aren't what they used to be! Hey, we all forget things now and then!
Of course, just to chuck in another conspiracy theory....

...maybe the white Floyded Rhoads seen in the promo pictures did have a bad Floyd install, was sent back, had the cavity filled and turned into a hardtail...there aren't any pictures of that guitar other than the promo shots are there??? And there aren't any pictures of it with a Jackson logo on it either! Or I could just be fucking with everyone's minds!

Yeah, that's unlikely story though.

As for the other outstanding anomalies.... pickguards are an easy replace.....we don't know if they are even wired up? So in some respects, who cares what the control layout is!
The Floyds........ the fine tuner models started in 1984 and I think the remaining NFT Floyds went out on the lower end Kramer Pacer guitars and as we know, our boy (and Brad Gillis) have a love for the NFT. With Floyd Rose not making the NFT anymore (they did start production again in 2014), I know that if I was giving/selling a guitar to hang in a museum and I could easily replace the Floyd so I could keep the one I loved because I couldn't buy one anymore, I'd do it. The only thing is that both the Hard Rock display guitars have the JT-6 Jackson Floyd. You could say that Vinnie just bought a couple of Rhoads anytime and fobbed them off as originals but...and I could be wrong (Vic will tell me so), Jacksons fitted with a JT-6 were also fitted with a "behind the nut" Kahler lock nut! Check out Drew's VVV for an example. Now a nut change IS a big job compared to a Floyd swap. Just trying to throw every possibility out there!

Now tuko has thrown in some shots from the Boyz vid....hmmmmm pink headstocks on the Rhoads (NOT $2000 VVVs, you naughty boy Vinnie

) used as the bash up guitars! Though I'm happy to admit, they could have been fakes used in the video eg repainted Hondos or Fernades guitars. Anyone else think the the wangs look too big to be a Floyd? Maybe Kahlers?

And the final thing I can say is, that we've forgotten the story (and confirmed by Bobby Rock) about Vinnie smashing his favourite guitar during the recording of VVI. Now with Vinnie in "full pink mode" in 1986 and with all the road damage inflicted on them during the LIU tour... I could see that the headstocks got re-sprayed in pink! We don't know which was his favourite though, to be honest.

That's all I've got on the matter, only guesstimations and a touch of hope for honesty. Hopefully the Florida Hard Rock will come through with some pictures and we can have a good look at the one hanging there.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon May 25, 2015 2:23 pm

I hear you on the NFT Floyds being removed, of course you would do that, Vinnie took them with him wherever he went.

The posts used with JT guitars are different and yes, they unfortunately utilised a Kahler style nut, so putting a Floyd nut on there is not a simple task. It can be done, but you will be able to tell.

My guess is the guitars in the video are not even Jacksons, just something with the right shape, painted to match. If he wasn't going to use proper Jackson VVV's then no point using proper Jackson Rhoads either.

The task involved to convert a Floyded Rhoads from white to black hard tail is not worth the trouble when you can fix whatever is wrong with the Floyd install, if there was a problem, and make the hard tail from scratch.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Mon May 25, 2015 5:48 pm

Vinnie did 50 shows on the Creatures tour and 100 on Lick It Up, of which there are photos of what, maybe 10 or 20 shows? I don't find it that hard to believe that he had 5 or 6 guitars on either tour, and 10 or more that cycled in/out across all dates. Maybe he mainly played 2 or 3, but it's not hard to believe there were a couple of others that were played when one went out of tune, or whatever, and there aren't pictures of it because it was played for 1 or 2 songs during a few shows here and there. After the tour, it went in storage because it wasn't one of his main guitars. Not hard to believe at all.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon May 25, 2015 7:59 pm

My start point is Vinnie stating in the March 1986 Guitar World that he owned 6 Rhoads.

The white hardtail at the auction was a guitar that came out of the blue.

Check the Vinnie's Gear section goinblind, where we'd done as much as we could to figure out what the 6 Rhoads are and the white hardtail just showed we got it wrong again!

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:05 am

goinblind wrote:Vinnie did 50 shows on the Creatures tour and 100 on Lick It Up, of which there are photos of what, maybe 10 or 20 shows? I don't find it that hard to believe that he had 5 or 6 guitars on either tour, and 10 or more that cycled in/out across all dates. Maybe he mainly played 2 or 3, but it's not hard to believe there were a couple of others that were played when one went out of tune, or whatever, and there aren't pictures of it because it was played for 1 or 2 songs during a few shows here and there. After the tour, it went in storage because it wasn't one of his main guitars. Not hard to believe at all.

how many guitars do you think he had on the road? He never had a pink headstock rr v on kiss period. What are we missing?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:07 am

And he never had post 87 tremolo in kiss and no way did he put back concert played strings on a guitar repainted, tremolo changed and controls changed.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:09 am

BUSTED, TOTALLY BUSTED

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 4:11 am

I would agree I can not rule out Cardiff one but it's far fetched but the florida and juliens one for sure I can rule out as kiss guitars

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:18 am

What do you mean "he never had," "he never had"? My whole point is you cannot know every guitar he had, or performed with on stage, across 150 shows, (literally) thousands of songs, in 2 years and over 3 continents ... and we've seen pictures of 10 shows (or 20 at the most) that were taken while performing probably a few songs at each of those shows.

You are basing your information on photos from a handful of shows and a handful of songs. There are literally 2000+ more songs performed where no photos exist.

Do you know how touring for a major band works?

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:31 am

doublev2 wrote:Even if just one of thrse mods like changing tremolo or headstock paint why would he go through trouble of looking after stage played strings and putting back on? If he never intended to play it again I coukd see maybe putting old strings back on but if he didbt intend to play why do all the mods? It's totalling ridiculous and fraud. It's fraud on two counts. One he did not claim this guitar or any in juliens auction in his bankruptcy declarations and two it's fraud because the description is not correct at all.

Dino, This is the post that makes the most sense to me.
Why put those strings back on AFTER modding them ?

Certain markings on certain guitars point to them being authentic.
I have disagreed with a few of your arguments. I AGREE with this one though.

I hate that Vinnie is so desperate for money that he sold Tom Palecki's guitar down the river for a few grand. It sickens me .

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:38 am

You don't have to claim personal effects in a bankruptcy. You don't claim your TV, the antique furniture your grandma gave you, or your personal guitars and leather boots in a bankruptcy.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:20 am

goinblind wrote:You don't have to claim personal effects in a bankruptcy. You don't claim your TV, the antique furniture your grandma gave you, or your personal guitars and leather boots in a bankruptcy.

Really?

That's interesting!

What looks suss is the pink Rhoads in the Julien's auction having, "the Floyd Rose replaced with a Jackson one in 1984". If it had said 1987 then they'd be no drama. The JT-6 wasn't released until 1987.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:12 am

Yes you do. It's personal bankruptcy. He did declare one guitar. It's not hos company that went bankrupt it's him.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Tue May 26, 2015 9:34 am

Do I really have to Google it for you?

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue May 26, 2015 11:24 am

Think goinblind may be right on this one!

Court rulings and general practice experience have established a general idea of what types of property are exempt and non-exempt. Below are examples of property that a Chapter 7 debtor will usually have to give up ("non-exempt" property), and property that the debtor may usually keep ("exempt" property).

Property That Is Not Exempt

Items that the debtor usually has to give up include:

Expensive musical instruments, unless the debtor is a professional musician <---------
Collections of stamps, coins, and other valuable items
Family heirlooms
Cash, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and other investments
A second car or truck
A second or vacation home
- See more at: http://bankruptcy.findlaw.com/chapter-7 ... VUKf6.dpuf

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue May 26, 2015 12:21 pm

Vinnie filed for Chapter 11 in 1989, and from what I can find, tried to Chapter 13 a few times afterwards, not always successful due to it looked like he was abusing the Bankruptcy system.

Not sure how that affects things, but it looks like he never filed for Chapter 7.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue May 26, 2015 5:34 pm

Having a quick look, it appears Chapter 7 is WORSE than 11 & 13 and still, as he's a professional muso, Vinnie wouldn't have to put the guitars on as assets.......but I could be wrong!

11 & 13 are for paying back your creditors over time because you want to keep your business going while 7 seems a "tough shit, we're selling all your stuff to pay back the creditors". ...but I could be wrong!

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:40 pm

Ok so now you can avoid to tell creditors that you have over one hundred thousand dollars in assets. I like that kind of bankruptcy.

aeroflott · Post by **aeroflott** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:49 pm

Let's not forget that Vinnie has a history of selling guitars to fans that weren't quite what he claimed, as described by Paul Stanley during this Q&A.

Watch from 2:20:

[youtube][/youtube]

Assuming Paul's story is true, that's pretty damning.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:51 pm

Yes. Exactly a history.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:51 pm

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 6:52 pm

Gold on Lick it up tour

aeroflott · Post by **aeroflott** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:01 pm

Hmmm. Bottom left?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:10 pm

Looks gold too. Good eyes

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:11 pm

On Lick it up tour we know 2 x reverse inlay pink. 1x reverse inlay gold, one non reverse inlay pink with new jackson logo plus the black one. All with black painted headstocks. The only question is is the gold one one of the two pink or a third reverse inlay guitar.

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:25 pm

Kiss were big on repainting guitars in this low income period as a way of giving them a new look.

Its entirely feasible that a gold Rhoads turned pink during the tour.

aeroflott · Post by **aeroflott** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:29 pm

The mentality of respraying and repairing guitars is interesting also. Personally, I would leave all the "battlescars" on the guitar, rather than restoring them. These things would have taken a real battering on the road - that kind of damage left on the guitar would have meant more authenticity (to me anyway).

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue May 26, 2015 7:47 pm

Kiss did it so it looked like they had new guitars for the new tour.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Tue May 26, 2015 8:24 pm

It'd be nice to get an original and detailed print of the Jackson/Charvel endorsers ad to see Vinnie's Rhoads has an ebony board? If so, then he's got a 3rd reverse inlay guitar.

Thought of something though. In the Julien's description of one of the Rhoads it states,"Vinnie was given 4 prototypes". Now then, photos from the CoTN tour show that Vinnie had 2 x gold, 1 x black hardtail and 1 x Floyded, white dot neck!
So.......what was the white hardtail if it was given for the CoTN tour???

Hey like I said earlier, no one's memory is perfect.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Wed May 27, 2015 7:14 am

Yes it's all wrong. But all I can say is the concert strings was a mess up on vv's behalf.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Thu May 28, 2015 2:41 pm

shramiac wrote:Think goinblind may be right on this one!

Court rulings and general practice experience have established a general idea of what types of property are exempt and non-exempt. Below are examples of property that a Chapter 7 debtor will usually have to give up ("non-exempt" property), and property that the debtor may usually keep ("exempt" property).

Property That Is Not Exempt

Items that the debtor usually has to give up include:

Expensive musical instruments, unless the debtor is a professional musician <---------
Collections of stamps, coins, and other valuable items
Family heirlooms
Cash, bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and other investments
A second car or truck
A second or vacation home
- See more at: http://bankruptcy.findlaw.com/chapter-7 ... VUKf6.dpuf

These weren't expensive guitars in 1989 when he claimed bankruptcy. Celebrity-owned doesn't automatically increase the value of an instrument, much less to a known amount. And his lawyer certainly isn't going to attach an inflated, completely unknown and unrealized value to them in his filings. These were $1000 guitars that had a used resale value of $500 at the time. Also, CA is pretty liberal with personal exemptions.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Thu May 28, 2015 5:18 pm

They were a tad more than $1000....they were closer to $2000 at the time.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Fri May 29, 2015 11:30 pm

Custom CUSTOM Jackson guitars were a lot more than $500 at that time.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Sun May 31, 2015 7:42 am

Well, at least we all agree now that he didn't commit fraud by hiding tens of thousands of dollars in guitars.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun May 31, 2015 8:22 am

I don't agree

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Sun May 31, 2015 8:55 am

I believe GB was being sarcastic. I don't agree either.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Sun May 31, 2015 7:28 pm

No, I was being serious, as you both admitted the guitars were in the $2000 range new, retail (which I still think is high, but I don't have any ads or anything to prove it). There is no way they had an intrinsic value beyond their value on the used market, which would only be half their cost as new guitars.

Please, call up Guitar Center Hollywood and ask them how much of a premium you can get because you have a guitar owned by someone that was briefly in a famous band about five years ago and just lost their record deal and declared bankruptcy. It won't be $20,000!!!

Vinnie's bankruptcy lawyer followed the law, assigned a fair value to the guitars at the time, and they fell under his personal effects. No fraud at all. It's ridiculous to try to retroactively assign value to a guitar 20 years after the fact, and present that future value as proof of fraud 20 years prior.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun May 31, 2015 11:04 pm

Can't comment on the bankruptcy stuff per se but one of the 80's built, customer ordered, Jackson VVVs sold on eBay last year and one of the pictures on the eBay listing was of the original invoice which was $1799.00! So the $2000 comment is almost on the mark. Never mind that Vinnie himself described them as $2000 guitars when talking about the "Boyz'' video.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:47 am

The VVV Jackson was not a production model. It definitely cost MORE than a Soloist in comparison.
GC is well known for lowballing an instrument's worth then trying to sell ridiculously high. THAT is one of the reasons why they are in trouble.

Vinnie had/has many vintage instruments that he never claimed in bankruptcy.

I can give a shit about any of them. I would just like to see him make good with an honest man that had his back when no one else would. Vinnie forgets about loyalty at his convenience.
If he refuses to make things good with Tom Palecki, he needs to stay in seclusion for good.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:15 am

Vinnie declared one guitar in his collection. Plain and simple.

goinblind · Post by **goinblind** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:20 am

Did he declare his TV? Did he declare his couch? No, because you don't have to declare your personal effects, of which his guitars were, as well.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:25 pm

Vintage and custom built guitars are an entirely different story.

sedation · Post by **sedation** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:27 pm

Just out of curiosity, and remember I am not familiar with the bankruptcy laws in the USA at all, but to be considered a "professional musician" wouldn't he have to be actually using the instruments and to generate an income to have them excluded from a bankruptcy claim? It would be akin to a truck driver declaring bankruptcy and being allowed to keep his truck as a means of generating an income to either provide for his family or possibly trade their way out of bankruptcy. Just a thought

FISHEYEDFOOL · Post by **FISHEYEDFOOL** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:37 pm

i wonder if that one guitar he claimed was the coral acoustic that was left upstairs in the attic?

tukoztukoz · Post by **tukoztukoz** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:10 pm

Julien's Auction : Who did buy the AZG, RR, Carvin and Charvel? Where are they?

Lucky buyer, be nice, show us some pics and tell us about those guitars!!!!

Post by **Streetbeat** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:10 pm

Yes i wonder the same thing

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:13 pm

Let's hope they show up here at some point to tell us about their purchases.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:19 am

Yeah I will let the buyer have A nice soothing background of his instruinstrunt.

tukoztukoz · Post by **tukoztukoz** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:19 am

: VVpink headst.JPG (32.09 KiB) Viewed 3356 times

I've just seen this on Genebaby's photobucket (don't know how I came there... Lots of pictures I had never seen. Thanks, Genebaby!). I don't think Vinnie played any concert with that guitar at the time...

there was that pic, too :

: vvgoldpink.JPG (24.84 KiB) Viewed 3356 times