Warning,ridiculous question - if VV had stayed in Kiss...

syncophile42 · Post by **syncophile42** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:04 am

Picking up on the comments about if VV had stayed in Kiss in the “…2012 comeback…” thread, and from a strictly musical and image point of view:

If VV had stayed in Kiss, we wouldn’t have the earth-shattering Invasion album, the direction, and subsequent music in all its glory, but we can only wonder of what gems would have come out of an on-going Kiss unit.

So the question is, do you think you would have preferred to have no Invasion but a stronger Kiss, or what we had/have?

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:11 am

I would have to choose staying in Kiss and missing out on the Invasion stuff. Kiss were my favorite band, they just got more and more bland after Vinnie. Kiss had teeth with him writing & playing and the subsequent replacements were poor contributors imo.......all of them.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:19 am

This is hard. The first Invasion album is honestly one of my favorite albums of all time. However, LIU is the best non-make up album...and definitely in the running for the overall best KISS album period.

I'd have to say though, based on how poorly it all came out in the end, I'd pick Vinnie to stay in KISS.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:18 am

My pick is he stayed in Kiss.

We would have a lot more musical output that was fantastic over the years and hopefully he may have done some solo work on the side as well, so win-win.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:40 am

Stay but with killer solo albums!!!!

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:53 am

Gene betrayed Vinnie's trust. Vinnie probably should kick himself for not signing a million dollar deal. Vinnie hung in there, though royalties weren't received. In the end, the tension between band mates ended the Vinnie KISS era.

strangeways · Post by **strangeways** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:20 pm

A stronger KISS.

I say they would've made albums to rival their output with ACE.
Lick It Up was their best album since Love Gun and easily their best non make up album.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:53 pm

shramiac wrote:Stay but with killer solo albums!!!!

my vote too! the creatures/LIU era definitely rivals the original era in my eyes and that's because they had carr and vincent.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:08 pm

I vote stay in Kiss, there was very good writing going on. It put Kiss back on my radar. I would take 8 great Kiss albums over two vinnie albums.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:54 pm

shramiac wrote:Stay but with killer solo albums!!!!

Good 'un.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:12 pm

Probably stay with Kiss. But it would be a harder pick if Invasion had released more albums.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:30 pm

Kma, who's creating rumours now?
Vv got paid. That has been proven. The record company pay the royalties not kiss.
Also vv said in an 86 interview that he had grown up since leaving kiss , admitting some of his failures with them. He never sued them until they did that make reunion tour and just a year before that he said he loves they guys in kiss and he is always there for them . How in the world kma would you know what vv did or did not get paid. He could not even convince the courts st least 4 times.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:34 pm

Vinnies wage supposedly according to vinnie was cut in half for Liu tour , a sure sign kiss didn't really want him.. vv seems to think he should have gotten the cotn fee and because he didn't he thinks kiss didnt pay him as far as I can guess.
Also remember kiss lost lots of money on the elder and cotn tours so the pay cut may have been due to that.

vvjunkie · Post by **vvjunkie** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Even though I like the music from invasion days it would have been some kick ass music for kiss. I would say stay in kiss.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:21 pm

Yeah. If they had paid him more to stay for one more record it would have been very interesting. Seemed like no chance at all of that.

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:49 pm

doublev2 wrote:Yeah. If they had paid him more to stay for one more record it would have been very interesting. Seemed like no chance at all of that.

Do you think he would have left if he hadn't been thrown out ?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:13 pm

yeah. i am sure he would have stayed on for lower money. Vinnie says it was business the reason he could not stay. Kiss say he was fired twice. I am not so sure I would trust Vinnie if we have history to go on (eg. all charges were dropped against me etc) ... Also Ace And Peter had done nothing after leaving kiss so it could have been the end for vinnie, instead he got two records out at least. Seen as Kiss kicked him out after the euro tour I can not see how he had much chance to stay on unless they wanted his song writing for Animalize.
You know if VV didnt get picked to join Kiss I still bet he would have been brought in to write on lick it up anyway.

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:44 am

Yeah probably. Not a lot of filler on the Kiss albums he contributed to. I'm surprised they didn't have him contribute to Animalize in some way. Maybe a combination of him pissing them off to the point where they just didn't want to deal with it anymore and G & P's mammoth egos.

syncophile42 · Post by **syncophile42** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:20 am

Seems like the general consensus is stay with Kiss.

Personally I think that the Invasion stuff is better than anything he did with Kiss, and I think if Kiss (with VV) had done those songs them they wouldn’t have been as good, but who knows what would have grown from it?

Kiss was the first real rock band I got into and that was around the CTN/LIU time which makes it very hard, but even so I have to go with the solo, just a shame it didn’t continue.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:26 am

syncophile42 wrote:Seems like the general consensus is stay with Kiss.

Personally I think that the Invasion stuff is better than anything he did with Kiss, and I think if Kiss (with VV) had done those songs them they wouldn’t have been as good, but who knows what would have grown from it?

Kiss was the first real rock band I got into and that was around the CTN/LIU time which makes it very hard, but even so I have to go with the solo, just a shame it didn’t continue.

Agreed. it's almost (did say almost) to the point that the crappies VVI song was better than the the best KISS song (KISS songs after VV left) . or at least the crappiest VVi was was as good as the best KISS song. (KISS songs after VV left)

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:47 am

I put in another post that Vinnie needs someone to work with to keep his stuff from getting too out of control or his lyrics from getting too pretentious. KISS (G&P) need a musician to turn their songs ideas into killer rock songs.
It was Ace in the beginning. (Seriously, listen to Wicked Lester and what introducing Ace to those songs did to them. Good songs made great by the Ace Frehley ingredient.) Then it was the Vinnie ingredient on CoTN & LIU.

After Vinnie they didn't have (allow) a strong musical direction until Revenge and Carnival of Souls, when Bruce finally stepped up and was allowed to put his imprint on things.

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:25 am

I always give Ezrin the credit for that. Gene & Paul need someone who isn't afraid to tell them they are producing crap, that's Ezrin imo.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:26 am

My vote is for a stronger Kiss PLUS having that wonderful VVI debut album.

Yes, I can have it both ways !!!!

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:16 am

doublev2 wrote:Kma, who's creating rumours now?
Vv got paid. That has been proven. The record company pay the royalties not kiss.
Also vv said in an 86 interview that he had grown up since leaving kiss , admitting some of his failures with them. He never sued them until they did that make reunion tour and just a year before that he said he loves they guys in kiss and he is always there for them . How in the world kma would you know what vv did or did not get paid. He could not even convince the courts st least 4 times.

The Wikipedia created the rumor that KISS wasn't paying him royalties. It also claimed Vinnie and Paul had a conflict over the length of Vinnie's solos before he left. That's my source of information. Maybe not the best source, but I am not creating anything.

Vinnie has said that they made him stay in cheap motels and that they had a long history of bad business practices...all in interviews. Vinnie claims KISS didn't pay him his share.

I am not doubting Vinnie loves Gene and Paul as people. I don't think he loves their business practices.. It's reasonable to separate the two. Business shouldn't be personal. Vinnie's there for his friends and he admits to his half. That's good.

There is a legal argument and an ethical argument. Courts only deal with the legal argument, not the ethical one. We like to think everything unethical is illegal, but that's not true.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:35 am

I think just about everyone hear agrees that G&P had/have treated the non-original members unethically...but all within the letter of their legal agreements. It's crappy of them for sure, but not illegal.

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:40 am

Here are some things that are unethical & illegal....

Selling a fan a guitar under false pretenses. (Obtaining money by deception)

Taking songs written by others and claiming them as your own work. (Copyright theft)

Selling a product to fans and refusing to refund when no product appears. (Basic statutory consumer rights)

Attempting to sell his fans hugely expensive guitars under a contract that denies said fan either an actual guitar or the right to their money back upon non completion. Had he actually managed to get anyone to hand over the money this would also be obtaining cash by deception as his self penned "contract of sale" was clearly written with that eventuality in mind.

I also doubt Vinnie "loves Gene & Paul as people when he spouts off vile anti semitic vitriol about them both on public forums under assumed names. Something that has been proven to be true based on matching IP addresses. NOW... it could be said he learned the ropes regarding his shady business dealings from his time with Kiss, but there's no excuse for the abuse of position he has repeatedly wielded against his (at one point) loyal fanbase and THAT my friends is where we are today.

Thanks, I'll be here all week, try the beef!!!

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:28 pm

poserboy71 wrote:My vote is for a stronger Kiss PLUS having that wonderful VVI debut album.

Yes, I can have it both ways !!!!

Whos the busty chick in your avatar? Im in love.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:47 pm

Portillo wrote:Whos the busty chick in your avatar? Im in love.

Ummmmmm...that might not be love.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:16 am

Oh YES it is.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:32 am

Naa, that's just a weekend getaway to Bonertropolis.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:03 am

I need a name!

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:50 pm

erg2 wrote:This is hard. The first Invasion album is honestly one of my favorite albums of all time. However, LIU is the best non-make up album...and definitely in the running for the overall best KISS album period.

I'd have to say though, based on how poorly it all came out in the end, I'd pick Vinnie to stay in KISS.

Can you imagine the demo's Vinnie brought to the table and w/ Kiss doing those songs ? Boyz are gonna rock , Shot full of love and the others ???

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:23 pm

Portillo wrote:I need a name!

The boobies had to go behind closed doors for the sake of the kiddies.

Call her anything you want, SHE'S DEAF.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:09 pm

Portillo wrote:I need a name!

Linsey Dawn McKenzie!!!

She's a former "Page 3" girl from England who got done for being a high class hooker so she went into porn!

Not that I know anything about her!!!!!!!!

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:16 pm

True, she does the TV sex chat phone lines now. Looks bloody rough too.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:38 am

jesternjeff wrote:Can you imagine the demo's Vinnie brought to the table and w/ Kiss doing those songs ? Boyz are gonna rock , Shot full of love and the others ???

It's hard to imagine the KISS passed on BOYS GONNA ROCK, although I'm glad they did because the VVI version is one of my all-time favorite songs. And the legend is that, in the vaults lies a KISS version of BACK ON THE STREETS with Paul singing...which has GOT to be incredible.

But to your point, think of what Animalize could have been with that KISS line-up and some of the songs that ended up on the first VVI album? And then go into Asylum with songs that ended up on All Systems Go? That would've been the trifecta!!

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:40 am

A few more unethical things to add to your great list vdog.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:29 am

Vinnie would've fit so well with the ASYLUM image too.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:05 pm

erg2 wrote:
jesternjeff wrote:Can you imagine the demo's Vinnie brought to the table and w/ Kiss doing those songs ? Boyz are gonna rock , Shot full of love and the others ???
It's hard to imagine the KISS passed on BOYS GONNA ROCK, although I'm glad they did because the VVI version is one of my all-time favorite songs. And the legend is that, in the vaults lies a KISS version of BACK ON THE STREETS with Paul singing...which has GOT to be incredible.

But to your point, think of what Animalize could have been with that KISS line-up and some of the songs that ended up on the first VVI album? And then go into Asylum with songs that ended up on All Systems Go? That would've been the trifecta!!

Well said and the anomaly of it all is a wonderful cocktail for the brain to only imagine !

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:06 pm

PinkWiz wrote:Vinnie would've fit so well with the ASYLUM image too.

Never thought of it like that but, your finally right about something !
P.S. just bugging : )

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:10 pm

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:34 pm

Asylum = worst visual presentation of KISS ever.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:18 pm

especially Gene.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:18 am

They should've gone with Black, Silver and Blue sparkly clothes instead of rainbow...but they were chasing down the likes of Poison and such. They just didn't understand that movement quite right and it showed.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:06 am

It was like kool and the gang mixed with the tv show dynasty

Vdog · Post by **Vdog** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:22 am

Ha ha, I never thought of Dynasty, but yeah that's pretty accurate.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:28 am

Ment to.say kool and the gang meets dynasty or maybe bootsy collins meets dynasty

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:38 am

Starting with Animalize is when I feel that KISS were checking out the up-n-coming bands, seeing what was getting attention and emulating it. Whenever KISS did their own thing (keeping in mind how heavily they mined their influences) they were successful. Whenever they incorporated what was popular it just didn't work out.

I'm not saying they didn't enjoy some retail success. Quite the contrary:
- Dynasty = Disco
- Asylum = Glam metal
- Hot In The Shade = Pop metal
But even though the albums enjoyed success, they are albums that were critically bashed and years later they are pretty roundly considered artistic misfires.

When they did what they wanted and the world be damned, they had success.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:26 am

glad to see i'm finally right...

anyway, yes the asylum look would've worked much better wih black and silver with a touch of each member's signature color added in (like the album cover). but i'm definitely in the minority cause i've always loved the asylum image and album (maybe cause it was mine and my brother's first concert, dec. 28, 1985 in charlotte, nc).

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:02 am

Yeah so many ways it could have worked . That said its funny to look at.