Peter Criss' "Makeup To Breakup"

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:38 am

I'm surprised nobody has talked about Peter Criss' book. By far the most truthful of all the KISS books.

People continually slag on Vinnie, but maybe after some read Peter's book, they will be glad Vinnie didn't end up like so many others that have endured Gene and Paul.

He could have ended up like Ace or Peter--drugged and boozed out.

He could have ended up like Eric Carr (with panic attacks) and screwed by Gene and Paul at the end of his life.

He could have ended up like Mark St. John--whose hand problems were caused by Paul and then they just tossed him aside. Of course, he was into kiddie porn so who cares what happened to him.

How Gene, Paul and Doc continued to screw and lie to Ace and Peter during the reunion, farewell tours etc. Ripping them off money. Even paying Thayer more than they paid Peter.

The one surprising omission in Peter's book is him begging Vinnie to let him be a part of Vinnie Vincent Invasion. To let him sing, co-write. Anything. Peter was desperate and Vinnie didn't want him in the band.

But if people want to complain about unethical people who rip everyone off around them-- look no further than Gene and Paul. The masters at manipulation and fraud.

Of course, there's been alot of b.s. interviews lately with people like Adam Mitchell (who still try and make money off Gene and Paul). Wasn't it Adam who was so clueless in his recent interview he was acting like Mark St. John was in KISS before Vinnie? There's been so many horrendous things said in interviews recently, where if the interviewer had a clue, he would have called them on their false claims during the interview.

Robert Fleischman and his recent b.s. really takes the cake. And he's just trying to still live off Vinnie. Nobody in their right mind would buy "The Sky". That's some of the worst music ever. Strum should have gone after him for some of his outlandish claims. But people probably just look the other way with Robert. He's damaged too many brain cells from his drug use. How can that guy still act like he was a part of Journey. Sang for them 8 months. Not on one album. My goodness.

Also, it was great of Peter busting Gene about what a terrible businessman he really is. Gene's a joke. He'll stick his name on 100 things. 99 of them will be failures at least. But Gene acts like he's a genius. Whether its the stuff he does under Simmons/Abrams or whatever-it usually fails.

And one of the best parts of Peter's book is Peter confirming what everyone already knew... that the He/She (Paul) would get so upset if anyone tried to take the spotlight away from Paul. Peter talks about how Paul tries to get in on Peter's part of KMTPOTP movie. And how Paul would get annoyed in concert if Peter was getting too much attention. That's why its priceless to watch the videos (especially the LIU tour) where Vinnie is upstaging Paul time and again. Paul is whining at Vinnie and being annoyed and Vinnie could care less.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:11 am

You are correct about G &P in most ways that you mentioned. I do believe that Mark had other compounding issues .
Adam, while confused, is pretty honest.

As for Robert, The Sky is good (think Enuff Z'Nuff

).
Journey thought of him enough to include him in the Rock Walk ceremony so who am I to judge his eight months with them? He helped write a few Journey classics.

Brainsaw wrote:
The one surprising omission in Peter's book is him begging Vinnie to let him be a part of Vinnie Vincent Invasion. To let him sing, co-write. Anything. Peter was desperate and Vinnie didn't want him in the band.

Please explain how you know this.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:48 am

yeah Peter mentioned he wanted to be in Frehleys Comet but not VVI. How the hell could Peter keep up with Vinnie?
I do know they talked about writing together around the time of ASG but I think Peter wanting to be in Vinnie's band is not correct but my ears are open.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:11 pm

Maybe Peter wanted to work with Vinnie, remember he used his song Tears for his 1982 album Let me rock you. Maybe those two would get along well musically speaking. Who knows for sure.
BTW Welcome to the board Brainsaw !!!

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:56 pm

Brainsaw wrote:I'm surprised nobody has talked about Peter Criss' book. By far the most truthful of all the KISS books.

We did!

http://vvforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3784

Love the avatar by the way Bsaw!

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:25 pm

Brainsaw most of us slag off vinnie for what he did to us and other fans and all the truthful stories from people at jackson.. bobby rock.. robert fleishman.. countless kiss expo promoters and all the people the db pod casts on etc. nobody really slags him off regarding kiss or kiss v vinnie vincent.
Its way far from the mark that we are siding with kiss regarding vv.
Its much much deeper than that. Also remember most of us were here with nothing but praise for vv until he reappeared and did what he did. So the kiss v vv thing doesnt cut it.
However my personal feeling is kiss gave him his chance and both kiss and vv took it and did a great job thankfully.

But as for vv not getting paid in kiss is bullshit. He got paid and its proven.
He wants retro paying because he feels he didnt get paid enough.
If that worked out pretty much any ex macdonalds employees should sue for not getting paid enough in the early 80s.

Also vinnie has a long long long line of people he didnt pay.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:31 pm

Also vinnie was an unknown coming into one of the biggest selling bands of all time... what would he expect to be paid. He was getting way more than most session players of the time.
Peter is different . He had to be part of the reunion. He sold his share and made some bad business choices which iis sad. Kiss learned the hard way how to keep their shit in order and unfortunately music is not only about music.

Vv has proven he couldnt sell records without kiss as much as he should have so I can not see what vv's problem with kiss is.

We all love vv in kiss and vvi which is why its so frustrating to be a fan of his.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:43 pm

One more thing. Tommy thayer gets paid more because he is basically kiss admin and manager and obviously trustworthy and on paul and genes side. Peter woukdnt be doing admin stuff. I think tommy is getting paid more because he is doing more.
I do feel bad if peter got screwed but you got to have a good lawyer go through these things and for something like a kiss reunion i would have two lawyers look at everything.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:47 pm

Can you tell me why tommy and eric singer dont complain about being screwed by kiss? And why vinnie , ace and peter do. Vv ace and peter alwsys have money issues. Its clear non of them hsndle themselves well financial in or out of kiss.
Why are kiss not screwing eric and tommy? It doesnt make sense to me.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:23 am

I think Tommy and Eric S. are just happy to be in Kiss (both being Kiss fanboys in the first place) and making good money. Bruce never complained and I'm sure Mark would've been happy if he stayed. Eric C. was happy for the most part.

When you think about it, the happy "background members" outweighed the unhappy ones. Ace, Peter and Vinnie were the only difficult ones for Gene and Paul and that's only because Peter and Ace were original members and Vinnie was... well... just Vinnie. Hell, the money Tommy and Eric S. make may be looked at by Vinnie as being ripped off.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:13 am

Yeah, it would be interesting to see if Vinnie would be accepting and happy with the deal that Tommy gets.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:23 am

Would be really really cool if Vinnie release a tell-all book, i think he can sell more than Peter

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:14 am

Cost of living taken under consideration--------Vinnie made $2,000 a week (they were cutting that back

) _____ Tommy was making $25,000 per show (8 years ago---- I wonder what he makes now ?) Just shows that the World isn't fair as far as rewarding talent.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:20 am

poserboy71 wrote:Cost of living taken under consideration--------Vinnie made $2,000 a week (they were cutting that back ) _____ Tommy was making $25,000 per show (8 years ago---- I wonder what he makes now ?) Just shows that the World isn't fair as far as rewarding talent.

True. I wonder if Gene just paid Vinnie that much to "punish" him for not signing the contract... maybe if he would have played ball and not rocked the boat he would've made alot more?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:01 am

Remember kiss didnt really want vinnie. Tried to replace him a few times. They want tommy.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:07 am

doublev2 wrote:Remember kiss didnt really want vinnie. Tried to replace him a few times. They want tommy.

Yeah they wanted Tommy back in '73 when he was 12...

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:23 am

Times were also different for KISS 83-84 Vs now, they make a lot more money, play bigger shows.

Back in '83 touring the world and playing to fans and getting 2K a week would have been awesome to most people. It's not like he had to pay for airfare, lodging and food out of his 2K.

Yes he was mega talented, and was worth more but he had to work up to that. It was all just starting and if he'd stuck with it then he would have been a king today, and so would KISS.

KISS are popular enough, but not like they used to be, especially over here. Australia really loved the Dynasty/Unmasked era of KISS, they were MASSIVE.

Today, they are touring, two arenas in Melbourne, one so far in Sydney. Pink is here again and is doing multiple dates all over the place, she is popular.

Then there is the league of AC/DC and Bon Jovi, who came and only played stadiums. AC/DC most successfully, three stadium shows in Sydney and Melbourne. One of those Sydney shows was more people than most of KISS' entire tour here.

They are doing ok, but even as a touring band their popularity is waning. It could be the show is boring these days compared to other acts (it is) or people could just be bored of them. In '97 they did three melbourne arenas and two in Sydney, I went to all five shows. That was there recent peak in popularity, fueled by the recent reunion.

If they could have made it work with Vinnie the music would have been unparalleded in the rock world and they would be playing shows in the league of AC/DC, everywhere, not just a one off big show here and there.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:51 pm

shramiac wrote:
Brainsaw wrote:I'm surprised nobody has talked about Peter Criss' book. By far the most truthful of all the KISS books.
We did!

http://vvforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3784

Love the avatar by the way Bsaw!

Thank you and thank you for the welcome as well Street Beat.

You are correct, I saw the Peter Criss book in the KISS thread after I had posted. But after finding it, I really didn't see much in there about how bad Gene and Paul were to other members (including Vinnie) and all the other things discussed.

One thing I didn't bring up before, which I should have, is how George Sewitt screwed all the past KISS members. He was an idiot and pretty much a slimy guy. I wish Vinnie hadn't used him, although, compared to whom he had afterwards (biting tongue).

So one other good thing that came out of Peter's book is showing the incompetence of George Sewitt.

Also, sure people can defend Gene and Paul and say Peter and Ace had bad lawyers and other things...but come on......flat out lying to these guys (the lawyers, Doc, Gene and Paul) is another thing.

The sad part is--too many casual KISS fans just don't care. If more cared, KISS couldn't tour with Gene and Paul and two jokes wearing other guys makeup. If that happened, Gene and Paul would be back to trying to kiss up to Ace and Peter in a minute.

I also thought it was funny when Peter was talking about how Gene and Paul aren't really friends etc. It was funny when Gene had his "Roast" (which stunk) on A&E during "Family Jewels" and Paul didn't show up. The Roast could have been great if there was a KISS ROAST with all the members being roasted. Just for what Ace and Peter would say would be priceless.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:09 pm

PinkWiz wrote:I think Tommy and Eric S. are just happy to be in Kiss (both being Kiss fanboys in the first place) and making good money. Bruce never complained and I'm sure Mark would've been happy if he stayed. Eric C. was happy for the most part.

When you think about it, the happy "background members" outweighed the unhappy ones. Ace, Peter and Vinnie were the only difficult ones for Gene and Paul and that's only because Peter and Ace were original members and Vinnie was... well... just Vinnie. Hell, the money Tommy and Eric S. make may be looked at by Vinnie as being ripped off.

Eric Carr having panic attacks all the time and being shoved down and not allowed to sing more or have his songs on the albums.... I think Eric was just "surviving" more than anything. He wasn't strong enough to take them on. He knew if he did-the consequences. How would you like to be Eric and not even play drums during Paul Stanley's solo tour. Of course, Singer doing that, paved the way for them bouncing Carr in favor of Singer.

But the real point would be...who contributed to the band more than anyone? Would Eric Carr been indispensable? No Mark St. John? No Bruce Kulick? No Eric Singer? No Tommy Thayer? Certainly not!

One thing you know - it just killed Gene and Paul hearing "Vinnie Saved KISS" back in the day. And people still say it. And that's pretty much a fact that nobody can dispute.

Some will argue--but he didn't really have much of an impact. To them--all they have to do is look at the music and the direction it took.

Kiss KILLERS (Michael James Jackson produced) Pre-Vinnie
Would that direction have put KISS back on the map? Same producer as Creatures Of The Night. Pretty much same everything except Vinnie wasn't around.

COTN/LICK IT UP everyone knows about those.

Animalize (Vinnie had been writing songs for the album) and his "feeling" is kinda there on the album.

But after Animalize--what do we have Asylum (Yawn), Crazy Nights (Snooze), HITS (good tour but the album?)

and where is the last great KISS album. What made the next album the one that Gene keeps saying every album past that will sound like (or he says COTN/Destroyer or Revenge/Destroyer). What happened on that album -- the return of Vinnie.

and what's been missing on every album since then.... and why have those albums been so lackluster?

Sonic Boom and Monster especially are just so utterly forgettable. And that's what you get when you have a tribute band Kiss player now in the band. It's not like Tommy was writing some incredible songs for Black-N-Blue so why should his work with KISS be any different?

Tommy and Singer are no threat at all to Paul's ego and Gene can use Tommy as his little gopher and do-boy.

If Gene and Paul would put down there egos and have Vinnie back (and pay him what he's really owed and due) then you could have another great KISS album. Just imagine an album with "Nuke It" on there. The whole tour setup could be like the "Fallout" video game. KISS could be on the cover wearing the nuclear suits. Instead of the Firehouse siren/lights, you'd have the nuclear yellow ones going off.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:13 pm

Streetbeat wrote:Would be really really cool if Vinnie release a tell-all book, i think he can sell more than Peter

I'd love to see that too, but I can't see him writing that or putting out new music (right now) when the bulk of the money would go straight to Gene and Paul to pay off the judgement they are owed. Why hand them any money...

I do hope everybody goes and out buys Makeup To Breakup. I also hope Ace writes another book and goes deep. He left so much out of his book. His was a very sanitized version.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:24 pm

PinkWiz wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:Cost of living taken under consideration--------Vinnie made $2,000 a week (they were cutting that back ) _____ Tommy was making $25,000 per show (8 years ago---- I wonder what he makes now ?) Just shows that the World isn't fair as far as rewarding talent.
True. I wonder if Gene just paid Vinnie that much to "punish" him for not signing the contract... maybe if he would have played ball and not rocked the boat he would've made alot more?

What's funny is that people will complain Vinnie didn't sign the contract. They are the same ones who think its ok that Peter and Ace are bad businessmen and got screwed over by G/P & Doc.

I don't feel like looking it up, anyone remember what Carr was getting paid back then?

Had KISS paid Vinnie alot closer to what he was worth, they all would have benefited. The KISS CO wouldn't had been on financial life support for all those years. The tours could have been a huge success and they could have been back to multi-platinum artists.

But that would have meant for Gene and Paul to embrace a new guy and admit they needed that new "shot of life" and all those things that come with it. It would have also meant, Vinnie having more songwriting credits on each album (than either Gene or Paul). LIU was probably all they could take. After that, its far easier to just shove another Desmond Child song on there or Adam Mitchell or someone else who wasn't a "face" in the band.

Also, one thing nobody ever asks Gene-- if Eddie Van Halen joined (which pretty much nobody believes he was asking to) how would Paul have dealt with it. If you thought Vinnie drove Paul nuts by stealing the spotlight, can you imagine what Eddie would have done to him. Paul would have had to double up his visits to Doctor Hilson.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:35 pm

Super cool posts Brain !
But ....why don't Vinnie go under another name or company to release independent stuff?
Why all his income will go to Gene and Paul still now in 2012? I wish Vinnie could tell us
We tried to help him release something a couple of years ago but it didn't work out because
he closed his own forum granted by our own Dino (doublev2). He should have released new music,
he even posted a statement on youtube but he never does anything,it's like he enjoys making his fans wait.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:03 pm

Streetbeat wrote:Super cool posts Brain !
But ....why don't Vinnie go under another name or company to release independent stuff?
Why all his income will go to Gene and Paul still now in 2012? I wish Vinnie could tell us
We tried to help him release something a couple of years ago but it didn't work out because
he closed his own forum granted by our own Dino (doublev2). He should have released new music,
he even posted a statement on youtube but he never does anything,it's like he enjoys making his fans wait.

If he went under another name who would buy it?

Also another issue, if not released right, it could bomb like Peter Criss' "One For All". That had Megaforce putting it out.

Under the best of circumstances, and if he was out there touring to support the cd and other things, the best he could hope for is sales around what Ace had for Anomaly. Although, more than likely, the high water mark would probably be somewhere around half of that.

Heck, up until recently Slaughter hadn't even thought of releasing new product in the last 1999 (CMC). I thought Tom might pick them up again for Roadrunner but he never did. But finally, they may end up putting something out on Frontiers or one of those other European labels.

But if there were a major album release or book release, you could bet that Gene and Paul would try and get an attachment on the proceeds to satisfy the judgement they won against him.

Years ago, one of Vinnie's favorite movies was "The Caine Mutiny". He loved Bogart and he loved that movie. I kinda look at Vinnie like the captain in that movie. He's nerves are shot. He's been screwed over by different people so he's paranoid.

Just remember- Vinnie got mind-****ed by Gene and Paul. Vinnie hardly drinks and doesnt do drugs so it effected him differently than Ace and Peter (going into the bottle & drugs to deal with it). Eric Carr (RIP)--he's nude in his room dealing with panic attacks because of them. And then he got screwed over royally at the end.

I too wish things were different. Vinnie is head over heels a better songwriter than 99% of those in Nashville. And instead of some of them doing Diane Warren songs or Desmond Child songs--they should have been recording Vinnie Vincent songs. Vinnie could have made a fortune if he had been concentrating on that from the mid-90's to around the time Itunes etc killed record sales for the most part.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:40 pm

What i meant was release it like Vinnie Vincent but legally protected , maybe associated
to another third party so KISS has nothing to do with this third party.

How long will be Vinnie affected by this income thing from KISS? Do you know that?
Maybe we will have to wait for that to end for him to release something?
How about some unreleased tunes on digital downloads?
It does not have to be a real disc, maybe release the content that he had for the planned 1996 Boxset
that never saw the light of day, i'm sure he still has all that music collecting dust.
Maybe for a small price, just for the fans. If he cares about them, maybe he does not!
He promised new music on youtube last year, he promised some demos for past christmas on his doublevforum
but he did not do it, why ?

I'm sure Vinnie still have it ! I'm sure he could write some killer tunes maybe for new bands or hey...
why not record video segments on youtube like David Lee Roth is doing, fans would be real happy.
We waited for a NAMM appearance, he announced a one show only last year but nothing happened.
We miss the guy , his music,his personality, his good heart.
Where is Vinnie Vincent and his music ?

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:21 pm

Brainsaw wrote: What's funny is that people will complain Vinnie didn't sign the contract. They are the same ones who think its ok that Peter and Ace are bad businessmen and got screwed over by G/P & Doc.

Oh, thanx for putting words in my mouth. I definitely don't think it's ok for anybody to get fucked over. Ace and Peter are to blame for signing away their makeups and agreeing to do the reunion under the stipulations that were presented to them... no one else.

Carr probably wasn't very happy later on but he was smart enough not to rock the boat. I hate it that they replaced him so soon after his death but I believe he would've remained in Kiss had he not gotten sick... maybe even remaining for the makeup reunion or at least replacing Criss again after the Farewell Tour. But that's just my opinion.

Vinnie on the other hand came straight into a lucky situation with a band that had been around for 10 years already and immediately started making demands. Yes Gene and Paul are greedy fuckers, I don't dispute that. But at the same time, no one comes into a job and starts making the exact same as the bosses who've been there since the beginning.

As far as Vinnie's career goes, he is maybe 1% of all musicians who get a lucky shot at the "big time." Then the guy gets multiple chances afterwards with the VV Invasion, another record deal after the Invasion, writing again with Kiss during Revenge, etc.

All that going down the shitter can't be blamed on Gene, Paul, Doc or Santa Claus no matter how much you wanna twist it.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:06 pm

I am sorry but giving vinnie a long contract under his terms would have been the death of kiss. Legal hell is what would happen 10 times worse than what we have seen since vv decided 15 years after he left kiss he wasnt paid enough after saying he loved them just before.
Vv may have sort of saved kisd with the 3 tunes he wrote on creatures but he would have killed them if he was contracted as we all know how vinnie would be with any power.
Vinnie made it impossible for himself and to be honest he did get paid lots and its clear he was just using kiss for his break anyway.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:15 pm

As for panic attacks a safe job in kiss is way better than what 99.999999% of musicians have. Listen to the dg pod casts.

What I will say about eric carr is he did speak out about paul and gene while in kiss .. infact the only musician in kiss I ever heard speak out about them while in the band. They had a big bust up over little ceaser and eric talked about it in kerrang. They were going to drop it from the album and use it as b side to hide your heart but he got really mad and they reversed it. But when I read the interview before hits came out I was certain that eric was going to leave or be kicked out . He also mentioned he was mad they wouldbt let him play on trouble walkin.
I think some bad blood was drawn before eric got sick .

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:38 pm

I've said b4 & I'll say it gain. VV could be musically & financially in a similar situation that Steve Stevens is today.
Steve's playing all the time, does clinics, does endorsements, appears on Tv shows & is making money.
VV has no one to blame but himself for how things have turned out.

metatron wrote:I don't know about a 'good experience' for him being in KISS.
Just it certainly gave him a window of opportunity that most people can only dream of. And catapulted him into the stratosphere of success.
What he decided to do with that was then up to him. One needs to remember he was in KISS. A band who had been around for around a decade when he joined. There was no way on Gods green earth that Gene & Paul were going to give him equal share & rightfully so. The writing credits issue is another matter & I agree without a doubt that he did get shafted. KISS is the band as Paul has put, 'people listen to with their eyes a we as their ears'. Paul & Gene, for good or bad had built a legacy & a legion of fans. As much as I hate the Corporatocracy that drives KISS, it does work for them. Reality check, KISS is still around playing huge venues & Vinnie is doing.........I think all great guitarist's need than anchor that stops them straying off into a sea nothingness. Steve Stevens has Billy Idol. And what is Steve Stevens best know for, Billy Idol. Steve Stevens has been quoted saying, that he did not really like playing in Vince Neil band cause Vince had no input into the songs. Unlike VV, Steve prefers the collaboration, throwing ideas around. A Symbiotic Existence which worked for a lot of artistes & most of the time produces the best results for the project. (Doesn't alway produce the best friendly relationship). Like I said works for Steve Stevens, but he is pretty close to a one of a kind & he also got to explore other avenues without Billy holding a grudge. Think with KISS, VV would not have had the same freedom to dabble in other projects. For Vinnie, what he got out of KISS was he got to play the first available Jackson Rhoads guitars. He went from a virtual zero to rock god hero. He got to pen the bulk of the material on LIU. And all this gave him a huge leap forward to creating VVI as well as (from what I recall) getting a pretty decent record deal from Chrysalis Records. He also had a ready made audience for him when the first album has release. Remember seeing the debut for 'Boys gonna Rock' on Australia's Mtv & the first thing the VeeJay, Richard Wilkins said was introducing, ex-KISS guitarist Vinnie Vincent with.........

Post by **Streetbeat** » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:59 pm

metatron is right, i wonder if he can still play like he used to

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:27 am

I've posted a lot of my thoughts on MAKEUP TO BREAKUP in the other thread. Basically, Gene & Paul screwed him over and that's shitty...but Peter was an adult and a 20 year veteran of the music business. The fact that he went into the negotiations for the reunion without his own lawyer and didn't take the time to understand the terms is really his own fault. It sucks they would do that to him, but it's moronic that he wouldn't protect himself. Anything after that is too little, too late.

I agree with the point of view that KISS would've probably suffered long-term had Vinnie stayed in the band. It's clear that he does not have a realistic or even ethical view of how business really works. Much less how it works under a tightly controlled business under the control of someone like a Gene Simmons-type. In my opinion, even if he HAD been given everything he wanted contractually, he would soon have been asking for more. That is just based on anecdotal information from every insider story about Vinnie's dealings.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:23 am

Brainsaw. 2 questions.

1 . Whats that about mark st john

2. How do you know peter wanted to be in vvi?

Thanks

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:30 am

Also brainsaw whats your opinion on mark dana and bobby.
Mark even said he would work with vv again?

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:20 am

i would like to see a reunited vv invasion in some kind of unplugged approach, i feel like vinnie has so much in him yet

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:27 am

Mark Slaughter and Paul Stanley have a common thread in 2012----NO VOICE.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:33 am

I don't want an unplugged VVI. It's gotta be LOUD.
Could Mark even sing it anymore? It doesn't sound like Fleischman would even consider it.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:44 am

Vinnie would have to get a FRESH voice .

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:55 am

i have this really funny image of peter in VVI now. I wish brainsaw could let us know if he got confused with Ace or if he has a scoop on Peter wanting to join VVI.

I do think Vinnie would have totally saved Peter if VV had written and produced an album for him. That would have been very cool.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:05 pm

Now that would have been great !!!
Never thought of that !
Vinnie writing ballads for Peter , like back in the streets or so , would have been a hit !
Peter's had the voice , Vinnie's the talent !

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:44 pm

Brainsaw,
I'm enjoying your posts so please keep them coming. As for performances I would enjoy seeing Vinnie singing himself.

Kev

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:48 pm

Vinnie should have done that since the beginning he has a great voice!

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:58 pm

Vinnie just needs to handle the vocals himself if he ever gets with it and starts releasing new stuff. Even though both Invasion albums are some of my faves I've never been a fan of the overly high vocals (it's good every once and awhile) and the Warrior demos with him on vocals are killer. It would just be cool if he would realize that everyone here would be totally supportive and are definitely not his enemies.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:03 pm

and yes the Vinnie/Peter connection could have been cool... two Kiss guys who were never in Kiss together rockin' out... kinda like that cool but odd feeling I got as a kid when Marvel joined up with DC.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:09 pm

got you perfectly on that feeling!

BigEd · Post by **BigEd** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:25 pm

We all have been very supportive and I believe Vinnie can still run circles around many of today's guitar stars in his sleep, his voice is unbelievable in regards to his Warrior Demo's and it would be so cool to hear him sing them in person some day ! In Bridgeport there is the 1,400 seat Klein Memorial Hall, many great music legends and bands have played to SOLD-OUT crowds...this was brought to Vinnie's attenion a while ago and I believe it was very tempting and almost a reality, this venue being held in VINNIE'S Hometown and it's close proximity to N.Y.C would have SOLD-OUT in 15 minutes and could have been the 1st step in the "Return Of Vinnie Vincent"

Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:50 pm

a dream come true , hope Vinnie gets back and play !

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:57 am

Its time for a vinnie book. He should just not worry about what anyone will say.
Last chapter the roach motel.

Post by **Streetbeat** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:03 am

I would love to read what he must say ! he would crush lots of heads and the world could finally
learn his truth and point of view.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:30 am

Agree with him or not a book of how vv sees things would be very good.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:38 am

I think the idea of Vinnie selling out a show is a bit over stated. As far as any success releasing any material on a monetary basis he has missed the boat, and I think he knows it. Even for known acts with a fan base releasing new material is not worth it. No one is making money off of recorded music sales. Radio station's are mostly a monopoly and play lists are controlled by a few people. With P2P sharing you may sell one per every 10,000 people who have a copy, and streaming revenue is paying basically nothing, and record company's have all gone bust.

With Vinnie having basically a nonexistent fan base, releasing music would have to be just for him and the few fans that have stuck around. Not that I would not like that to happen, but at this point I understand why anyone would just not bother.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:12 am

with Peter and Ace and there books, and being ripped off... you cant steal what someone gives away. Selling there makeup was really good timing, Kiss is on the down hill run and it would not be worth anymore than it was when it was sold.
At least Ace, will say I was a drunkin mess and made a lot of bad decisions. As far as Peter and his drumming I dont think he makes anyones best drummer list, not that he is bad just not memorable.

I think blaming Peter and Aces drug and alcohol on G&P are ridicules. As well as Saint Johns hand issues he was in the band for a blip. The issues he had with his hand and joints are results of a past infection, and could have been anything from gastrointestinal infection to needle drug use to a STD.

Do I think G&P were or are the most moral guys out there and never fucked some one over, no. But blaming them for every single thing that happened to anyone in the band is silly.